D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[TheSword]

This is true, but they're not really pegged as exploration abilities. Not in the "explore the wilderness" sense that the term implies. It's more like they're abilities that can be used in exploration.

I think that’s the trap though. Crossing a wilderness is only a fraction of the actual possibilities of exploration. There are plenty of great exploration adventures that might never step outside a city or far from the road. Mysteries, dungeons, haunted houses, the castles of corrupt nobles can all be exploration. Even searching for information in a dusty library is exploration. From the perspective of the three pillars anyway. Hence my assertion that being able to read languages is an exploration ability as well as a roleplay ability.

 

[TheSword]

No they don't. They can say, "I'm headed to the X on the map," and they cannot get lost on the way there. This literally means they cannot take a wrong turn. "No need to navigate, because if I go in the wrong direction, that's fixed because I cannot be lost."

What you're saying is that they need to navigate just like normal, and if they don't, then... what? They can't get lost. What's the outcome of failing to navigate or plan a route?

That’s just not correct. Not getting lost means you know where you are at any given point. It doesn’t mean you know what’s over the next hill or whether it’s safer to take the pass of Carahdras or the gap of Rohan.

If you’ve ever done trekking of the substantial kind you’ll know it’s perfectly possible to know exactly where you are at any given point and yet still have lots of tough decisions, follow some poor paths and hit a few dead ends… that’s with a map and GPS.

 

[Asisreo]

Are you? Why are you allowing re-rolls? And even if you are, doesn't there come a point where you-as-DM just say "guys, you've blown this six times; you'd better come up with a different method 'cause it's clear this one ain't gonna work."

Man, that statement you've quoted got all my personal pet peeves with how misinformed DMs are about the ability check system.

1) Breaking down doors are not an athletics check, they are a strength check.

2) Repeated checks are automatic successes within the 20+mod range when the party takes the time. It only takes 1 minute of fiddling with the door until the barbarian breaks it. The roll comes up when they're in combat or if the door actually does something on failure (like alert guards).

That is all, thank you for coming to my Ted Talk

 

[iserith]

What's the argument? That not being able to get lost in certain terrains and not others somehow skips over exploration?

 

[Faolyn]

I think that’s the trap though. Crossing a wilderness is only a fraction of the actual possibilities of exploration. There are plenty of great exploration adventures that might never step outside a city or far from the road. Mysteries, dungeons, haunted houses, the castles of corrupt nobles can all be exploration. Even searching for information in a dusty library is exploration. From the perspective of the three pillars anyway. Hence my assertion that being able to read languages is an exploration ability as well as a roleplay ability.

Sure, and I totally agree. I believe that the 6e PH/DMG should really emphasize this as well. In XGE, for instance, each skill and tool proficiency was expanded upon to show how they can be used in many ways, including exploration. The 6e's book should do the same right away.

 

[TheSword]

Gray area - too many cases where the wording (or interpretation) is "line of sight" where what they really mean is "unobstructed line of effect". You have line of sight through a glass window, but do not if in magical darkness. You don't have line of effect through a glass window but you do have line of effect through magical darkness (in an open area).

Also, to me that "summon within 60' " is just lazy wording; the Servant can go up to 60' away from you, sure, but I've always had it that anything summoned (or created, in this case) appears a few feet in front of the caster, who can then send it off to do whatever.

Agreed.

The rules talk about clear line of effect and total cover - which a glass window would provide. But then talks about being out of site. So is vague. It’s been clarified by Sage Advice that panes of glass provide total cover though I appreciate that some people bizarrely don’t accept sage advice on principle.

I will stick to the rule that that clear line of effect is needed to cast spells. I won’t have Resilient Sphere be a save or die button in my games.

 

[TheSword]

Sure, and I totally agree. I believe that the 6e PH/DMG should really emphasize this as well. In XGE, for instance, each skill and tool proficiency was expanded upon to show how they can be used in many ways, including exploration. The 6e's book should do the same right away.

 

[Vaalingrade]

1) Breaking down doors are not an athletics check, they are a strength check.

Why is it when people cry about their verisimilitude, it's never about things like the game thinking you can't train in techniques involving feats of strength and thinks it's all raw force? Lots of big burly dudes with dislocated shoulders, that's all I'm saying.

Edit: Memes are anti-funny already, but I think that one just negated the Onion out of existence.

 

[Ovinomancer]

That’s just not correct. Not getting lost means you know where you are at any given point. It doesn’t mean you know what’s over the next hill or whether it’s safer to take the pass of Carahdras or the gap of Rohan.

If you’ve ever done trekking of the substantial kind you’ll know it’s perfectly possible to know exactly where you are at any given point and yet still have lots of tough decisions, follow some poor paths and hit a few dead ends… that’s with a map and GPS.

No, hitting a dead end is because you've become lost, not that you aren't lost you just aren't where you expect to be.

Look, I can know where I am, but not know where X is. This is very true. However, if I start out with the intention to get to X, then I am lost -- I do not know my way. While this is a very literal reading of what "can't be lost is," it does show the issues with this kind of ability because you cannot point to a line where you are or aren't lost with regards to getting to X.

I mean, your argument can be reduced to saying that you know where you are in relation to something you already know, right? This is not lost. if you move the reference point to a place you don't know -- if you're trying to ascertain where you are in relation to X -- then you are lost, because you do not know where you are in this context nor do you know your way. "Lost" is always in relation to something, and the statement in the PHB is not qualified. So, the argument you have to still plan your journey and know where you're going is a GM added qualifier not present in the rules. You cannot assume that your ruling is ubiquitous, or that it should be.

 

[Nefermandias]

It was an idea from the Angry GM. The idea is that, as time passes in the game world, the GM adds dice into a bowl. If I remember the idea right, when there a six dice, the GM rolls them, and any show up a 1, you get a complication, like a wandering monster.

Basically, if players are more likely to run into monsters or whatever the more time they spend mucking about, you want a visceral way for them to understand how much time they're spending on different tasks. It's a tool to create tension and drive them to action when there is a time pressure.

I'm not sure it's the right tool for encouraging exploration, since it's whole purpose is to get the players moving, and spend less time poking at things.

Angry GM's Tension Pool is indeed a great tool for tracking time and checking for complications. Each die represents a 10 minutes turn and the bowl is emptied when the sixth dice is added.