D&D 5E New D&D WotC survey! On classes.

[Undrave]

Effectiveness, mostly. The class all but requires a maxed-out Charisma and Dexterity, or patches from other sourcebooks, to be able to keep up with other classes.

But I'm not giving up just yet.

I was thinking of redoing my charlatan I mentioned in the thread for your little exercise, but as a roguish type he'd need good DEX and CHA to work his concept... So he can break into people's home, sneak around, and even bluff or intimidate people.

Maybe an Half-Orc drummer who likes to grapple people?

I feel the Bard kit is just really REALLY tuned to a 'subtle'/'tricky' play style, which automatically wants good DEX for subtle actions and the charisma to fool people...

 

[Undrave]

I think the heart of this specific problem is that the Bard is a full caster with a naughty word damaging cantrip. So if you want to do ok damage you must relly on some weapon. That makes you feel like your dex has to be high. Where I disagree is with this last notion. If you use a crosbow, even with low dex, you will be on par with the wizard's firebolts on damage (more or less).

I think it's more of a "feel bad" problem than a "play bad" one

It feels friggin' bad to miss with your sole crossbow attack and lose a turn not doing anything 10% more often than other characters.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So everyone would be happier if they didn't play characters who cared that much about survival because they knew it was a given? There's nothing wrong with that but D&D is a hacked tabletop wargame, right from the start.

If you don't care whether you have the skills to survive in the setting it's because you don't care about the narrative.

Believe it or not I do this. And I enjoyed my Shadow Monk. But my monk was good enough that he could contribute significantly to the party rather than being something dragging them down that they need to rescue.

As I said in a post some pages back... if a table is so cutthroat in combat that playing a Beastmaster Ranger or a 4 Elements Monk makes you suck so bad that your character's very survival is unlikely... then you are just S.O.O.L. with this game. Because WotC is NEVER going to get so granular and nitpicky in their math and balancing to make sure every single class and subclass and variant is so completely balanced to one another that every combination is exactly the same in terms of power. And if you hang around the game and keep waiting / hoping / expecting it to happen... you are going to make yourself miserable.

Which is fine. Be miserable if you would like. But if someone then comes on the boards here complaining about it repeatedly... I'm going to chime and state quite clearly that their misery is their own fault. And if they don't want to be miserable... THEY need to change, and not WotC. Cause WotC is beholden to hundreds of thousands of people, whereas that person is only beholden to themself.

(Or of course, the person could also do a quite sensible thing like re-balance their Beastmaster Ranger or 4 Elements Monk themself if it matters that much to them. They know better than WotC what need to happen for those to be balanced with all the other stuff at their table after all.)

 

[Mind of tempest]

As I said in a post some pages back... if a table is so cutthroat in combat that playing a Beastmaster Ranger or a 4 Elements Monk makes you suck so bad that your character's very survival is unlikely... then you are just S.O.O.L. with this game. Because WotC is NEVER going to get so granular and nitpicky in their math and balancing to make sure every single class and subclass and variant is so completely balanced to one another that every combination is exactly the same in terms of power. And if you hang around the game and keep waiting / hoping / expecting it to happen... you are going to make yourself miserable.

Which is fine. Be miserable if you would like. But if someone then comes on the boards here complaining about it repeatedly... I'm going to chime and state quite clearly that their misery is their own fault. And if they don't want to be miserable... THEY need to change, and not WotC. Cause WotC is beholden to hundreds of thousands of people, whereas that person is only beholden to themself.

I would suggest you not become a merchant of misery it is a depressing career with few advancements prospects and no real pay.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Effectiveness, mostly. The class all but requires a maxed-out Charisma and Dexterity, or patches from other sourcebooks, to be able to keep up with other classes.

But I'm not giving up just yet.

Well, valour bard doesn't necessarily need that much dex. Or any mountain dwarf bard. Now any caster is going to want a good casting stat, so it is a bit weird to demand that they wouldn't have that, though I'm sure that would be less detrimental to a bard than some other caster classes, as they have good selection of buff, healing and utility spells that do not rely on spell attack or save.

 

[Faolyn]

Effectiveness, mostly. The class all but requires a maxed-out Charisma and Dexterity, or patches from other sourcebooks, to be able to keep up with other classes.

But I'm not giving up just yet.

And here you go. I just whipped this one up. I didn't really go for super-high damage or anything like that. I rolled 4d6 drop lowest in order and stuck entirely with the PH for all things (except for two spells and one musical instrument), kept the racial ASIs (ugh), and because of that, decided that this character is a scholar who wants to study orcs and goblinoids in order to better bridge the gaps between them and elves and to make peace between them.

Sirean
high elf, 3rd-level bard (lore), Sage background, neutral good
Str 15 (+2), Dex 14 (+2), Con 11 (+0), Int 18 (+4), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 14 (+2)
Saving Throws: Dex +4, Cha +4
Darkvision: 60 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (studded leather)
Weapons: longsword 1d8+2 slashing; longbow 1d8+2 piercing.
Proficiencies: Arcana +6, Athletics +6 (X), History +6, Insight +3, Investigation +6, Perception +3, Persuasion +6 (X), Religion +6, Survival +3. Musical instruments (flute, drums, fortepiano)
Weapon/Armor Proficiencies: longsword, shortsword, shortbow, longbow, simple weapons, rapiers, hand crossbows. Light armor
Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarf, Goblin, Orcish
Fey Ancestry: advantage on saves against being charmed and magic can't put me to sleep.
Trance: I can trance for 4 hours a day, gaining the benefits of 8 hours of sleep.
Researcher: If I attempt to learn or recall a piece of lore and fail, I can (usually) know where and from whom I can obtain the information.
Bardic Inspiration: two d6s. I regain all dice after a long rest.
Ritual Casting: I can cast any bard spell I know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag.
Jack of all Trades: I can add +1 to any skill roll I make that I'm not already proficient in.
Cutting Words: When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of me makes an attack roll, ability check, or damage roll, I can use my reaction to expend and roll one Bardic Inspiration die. I can then subtract that number from the creature's roll.
Song of Rest: When a creature who can hear my performance regains hit points by spending HD at the end of a rest, they regain an additional d6 hp.
Spellcasting: Spell save DC 12, +4 to hit
• Cantrips: mage hand, mind sliver (from high elf), minor illusion
• 1st Level (4 slots): calm emotions, cure wounds, disguise self, enthrall
• 2nd Level (2 slots): invisibility, pyrotechnics

Traits: By living among violent people, I have become desensitized to violence. I'm willing to listen to every side of an argument before I make my own judgment.
Ideals: By understanding other races and cultures, we learn to understand ourselves. The path to power and self-improvement is through knowledge.
Bonds: I've spent a huge amount of my life trying to understand the lives of people who are very different from me.
Flaw: I am easily distracted by the promise of information.

I mean, this might not be anyone's cup of tea, but this character is definitely not a smarmy, clownish, rapier-user. Their 1st-level spells allow them to (hopefully) interact with others in relative peace, and their 2nd-level slots are for getting out of Dodge quickly, if necessary. They used bardic expertise on Persuasion, so they can hopefully talk to the goblins and orcs they meet, and Athletics, so they can hopefully prove they're tough enough.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I would suggest you not become a merchant of misery it is a depressing career with few advancements prospects and no real pay.

Heh heh... ALL of us here on E.N. World are Merchants of Misery. We spend all our time writing pages upon pages of material on these boards, of which 99.999% of it falls on deaf ears and is completely ignored. By WotC, by other companies, and even by each other.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Heh heh... ALL of us here on E.N. World are Merchants of Misery. We spend all our time writing pages upon pages of material on these boards, of which 99.999% of it falls on deaf ears and is completely ignored. By WotC, by other companies, and even by each other.

dude I got kicked of boards for it, besides sitting and discussing is closer to what we do or argue opinions over a topic not make suggestions to change as we all know they like all ruling bodies do not care what we think under any conceivable situation.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

As I said in a post some pages back... if a table is so cutthroat in combat that playing a Beastmaster Ranger or a 4 Elements Monk makes you suck so bad that your character's very survival is unlikely... then you are just S.O.O.L. with this game. Because WotC is NEVER going to get so granular and nitpicky in their math and balancing to make sure every single class and subclass and variant is so completely balanced to one another that every combination is exactly the same in terms of power. And if you hang around the game and keep waiting / hoping / expecting it to happen... you are going to make yourself miserable.

Which is fine. Be miserable if you would like. But if someone then comes on the boards here complaining about it repeatedly... I'm going to chime and state quite clearly that their misery is their own fault. And if they don't want to be miserable... THEY need to change, and not WotC. Cause WotC is beholden to hundreds of thousands of people, whereas that person is only beholden to themself.

(Or of course, the person could also do a quite sensible thing like re-balance their Beastmaster Ranger or 4 Elements Monk themself if it matters that much to them. They know better than WotC what need to happen for those to be balanced with all the other stuff at their table after all.)

I agree with your overall sentiment that perfect balance is not required nor should be expected, but some subclasses are just anomalously bad and would negatively impact fun even in completely casual and story focused setting. Watching Critical Role campaign one really drove home for me how terribly designed the beastmaster subclass is. These definitely are not competitive powergamers and it was very story focused. And I could see how Laura constantly wanted her ranger's pet to do cool stuff, but the bloody thing was just so useless. It simply couldn't fulfil the narrative of the class, the pet and ranger fighting together, as the pet just kept dying and even when it didn't, it couldn't achieve much. She even had magic items made for the pet to keep it alive, but it really didn't help. Whenever the pet was with them she basically had to focus protecting the poor sod (and usually failed.) Ultimately she gave up trying to make it work and multiclassed into a rogue.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Agreed. There are half a dozen combat cantrips I'd add to the bard list starting with Poison Spray and Mind Sliver.

It is kinda weird how they're full casters but don't really have proper attack cantrips. I said earlier that I like barads being able to fight, but now the situation is that they aren't really any good at fighting with weapons, but do so anyway because they don't have proper attack cantrips.

I was musing a spirit bard a while ago (for a campaign that probably won't happen) and I imagined them as this weird gothy fortune teller with a strong death theme. I really couldn't see them fighting with a rapier, but vicious mockery didn't really seem right either. I really wish they could have some death themed attack cantrip like chill touch or toll of the death.