D&D 5E New D&D WotC survey! On classes.

[CleverNickName]

Okay, here you go.

@Blue, @Ruin Explorer, and @Snarf Zagyg, allow me to present Ivann Iron-Tusk for your consideration. He is unlike any bard I've ever seen.

Spoiler: Things I Learned

For versatility, the bard class relies a lot more on racial features than other classes do. For example, I went with Mountain Dwarf to get the weapon and armor proficiencies I needed for a "warrior" build. I considered going with High Elf to get a more useful cantrip, or Tiefling to get more useful spells. It's unfortunate, but I couldn't find a way to make a baseline human bard that could keep pace with other character classes.

The Lore bard was the obvious choice for a gap-filler. In my "mounted warrior" build here, the three extra proficiencies allowed me to pick up the Animal Handling skill that I needed, and a handful of other gladiator-style skills to better round out the character. It's essentially giving you the Skilled feat for free at 3rd level.

In conclusion: the Bard still isn't my cup of tea, but I'd rather play this bard than, say, an Eldritch Knight or a Sorcerer.

Spoiler: Gold and Equipment at 4th Level

You might be asking, "how did your 4th level character afford all that kit?" And that's a fair question! The answer is: umm...well, you see, to be perfectly honest I didn't really take money into consideration when I filled out that character sheet. I was kinda preoccupied with the whole "make a bard interesting" part of the challenge and kind of just went with my gut, ya know? But let me take a look and see how far off the mark I was...

According to D&D Beyond, a character is expected to have about 400gp worth of items by the time they reach 4th level, and 700gp by the time they reach 5th level. This doesn't include magic items, but magic items aren't in the Player's Handbook anyway so they aren't part of this challenge.

So as a 4th level character, Ivann should have between 400 and 699gp, depending on how long he's been 4th level. Looking at his equipment, he owns the following stuff:

• Elephant: 200gp
• Saddle: 60gp
• Barding: "x4." I didn't specify what kind of barding Thunderstep wears, so let's worry about that in a minute.
• Breastplate: 400gp
• Warhammer: free (starting equipment)
• Battleaxe: 10gp
• 2 Spears: 2 gp.
• Explorer's Pack: 10gp

The total so far: 682 gp.

Now let's assume that by the time he reached 4th level, Ivann had sold or traded that useless lute (35gp), the entertainer's pack (40gp), and leather armor (10gp) that all bards receive as starting equipment. Let's call that a credit of 85gp. Now, 682 - 85 = 597gp, which is comfortably within a typical 4th level character's wealth range. (A bit high, but not too bad for an accident!) If we assume that Ivann has been Level 4 for a couple of adventures now, he should be fine.

That doesn't leave a lot of room for the barding, though. Since armor for animals costs quadruple the amount for humans, and since I only have about 100gp left before I cross over into the 5th level character's turf, ol' Thunderstep will have to settle for leather barding (40gp) at best. It's probably better if we just forget about it entirely, at least until Ivann reaches 5th level.

 

[Yaarel]

It is kinda weird how they're full casters but don't really have proper attack cantrips. I said earlier that I like barads being able to fight, but now the situation is that they aren't really any good at fighting with weapons, but do so anyway because they don't have proper attack cantrips.

I was musing a spirit bard a while ago (for a campaign that probably won't happen) and I imagined them as this weird gothy fortune teller with a strong death theme. I really couldn't see them fighting with a rapier, but vicious mockery didn't really seem right either. I really wish they could have some death themed attack cantrip like chill touch or toll of the death.

This is a Celtic bard thing. The Bard is manipulating the fabic of fate, and the memorable wording is focusing the mind on the satire to curse someone, literally making fun of the target but in a clever amusing way. The target of the satirical curse actually suffers physically from the words, blisters rashes bleeding and worse.

It is ambiguous how to type this damagee in D&D. Maybe it is phantasmal psychic damage that becomes physically real. Maybe it is force damage from warping fate. It isnt thunder damage because there is no damage from explosion or vibration. Necrotic damage could describe the result of the effect well enough. I lean toward psychic damage, but would want to mechanically emphasize bodily damage is also happening. The spell could give the player a choice of damage type.

 

[Stormonu]

Okay, here you go.

@Blue, @Ruin Explorer, and @Snarf Zagyg, allow me to present Ivann Iron-Tusk for your consideration.

“Are you not entertained!?!”

I like this guy. May steal him for a game in the future.

 

[ReshiIRE]

Okay, here you go.

@Blue, @Ruin Explorer, and @Snarf Zagyg, allow me to present Ivann Iron-Tusk for your consideration. He is unlike any bard I've ever seen.

View attachment 142823

Pretty damn cool. Makes a cool support character, and you will have some fairly nice ASIs to get stranger and meet the curve later on.

I do have an operational question - how did you afford the elephant at level 4?

 

[CleverNickName]

Pretty damn cool. Makes a cool support character, and you will have some fairly nice ASIs to get stranger and meet the curve later on.

I do have an operational question - how did you afford the elephant at level 4?

An elephant only costs 200gp...half the cost of a warhorse.

Once I saw that, the character concept pretty much wrote itself.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

An elephant only costs 200gp...half the cost of a warhorse.

Which is actually pretty bizarre...

 

[Stormonu]

Yeah, rarity to the area is much more a concern. But for something like an Icewind Dale game, this would fit right in.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

No, I'm telling them that because what they want they can't actually get... they are going to be endlessly miserable. WotC cannot give them what they want.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to build a game of D&D that is balanced for every single player. Balance it for the way one table plays the game... it becomes unbalanced for 99 others. Because everyone's focus... even in just the board game itself... is different. So no one is EVER going to be happy under this way of thinking. And I'm just reiterating that to everyone.

So I'll say it again and again and again, every time someone complains how WotC screwed up and didn't balance the game. If you put "balanced game mechanics" as the most important thing to your D&D experience... you will never be happy. And if you want to be happy at some point in time... you're going to need to change your way of thinking and not keep trying to get WotC to cater the game to you. Cause it ain't gonna happen.

LOL that is absolutely not what you said at all.

You said that people who enjoy tactical play, who enjoy combat and making combat effective characters, even just people who enjoy the crunch aspects of DnD, all of whom you grossly mischaracterised as playing dnd like a boardgame, are literally playing wrong and definitely aren't actually happy, because they don't play like you. That you know better than they do what will make them happy.

You do not. You are conflating preference with fact, and conflating your experience with what other people are experiencing.

Here's an actual tip based in reality. Most of the poeple who have some fiddly crunch bit of the game they complain about online, aren't unhappy with the game. They enjoy playing the game. Having criticisms for the game does not indicate general dissatisfaction with the state of the game in general.

I'll throw in a free bonus tip, while I'm at it. There is no dichotomy between people who like crunch and care about whether the crunch works in a game run either how the DMG advises or how most groups actually run dnd, and people who care deeply about the narrative. They're the same people. Everything about your entire premise is completely rubbish, and egregiously arrogant, condescending, rubbish at that.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They say that the best way to lead is by example, so I'm gonna give it a try. Right here, in this thread.

That's right: I will attempt to roll up a Bard that (1) isn't a walking cliché, (2) is fun, interesting, and effective to play, and (3) uses only the 5th Edition Player's Handbook. This will either be easy or impossible, judging from some of the comments in this thread...but we'll see. I don't think it's impossible.

Stay tuned.

And join me, if you dare.

Spoiler: Details

The "walking cliché" of a bard, to me, is one who behaves like a smarmy class clown, fights almost exclusively with the vicious mockery cantrip and/or a rapier, and optimizes Dexterity and Charisma over every other stat. You've already met this bard, dozens of times, so you know what I'm referring to. The point of this exercise is to test the theory that bards don't have to fit this stereotype to be fun, interesting, and effective; therefore my bard will not use the VM cantrip, will not even own a rapier, and neither Dexterity nor Charisma will be their highest (or second-highest) stat. Can it be done? Some argue "yes."

For me, a D&D character is fun and interesting when it has a good backstory and makes sense from a narrative perspective. "Because it gives me a bonus to Whatever" is the antithesis of this philosophy, so it will be avoided. Counter to that, a D&D character is effective when it can fill more than one role on the battlefield and more than one role off the battlefield, has both a ranged and melee attack, has a decent armor class, and doesn't repeat the same two actions in combat...so these will be prioritized.

And finally, this thread (and the WotC survey that spawned it) focuses only on the classes and subclasses in the 5E Player's Handbook, so this will be the only book used. No third-party books, no obscure rules options from the Dungeon Master's Guide, no Xanathar's, no Tasha's, no SKAG, nothing else. Feats and multiclassing are in the PHB, for example, so they will be allowed (and probably necessary, but we will see.)

I will consider this exercise a success if @Blue, @Ruin Explorer, and @Snarf Zagyg can all agree that the Bard I create is one they would enjoy playing, even if only for a one-shot.

Wish me luck.

I would argue that the rapier isn't really necessarily part of the cliche, so much as it's the strong one-handed sword option. It effectively represents the arming sword, most strongly/entirely one-handed European sword types that wouldn't be called a shortsword or a scimitar, because it's comperable to the longsword except that it's only usable one-handed. I'd expect most sword and shield strength fighters to be using it, as well.

Of course, I also add finesse to longbows and shortbows, quarterstaves, longswords, and handaxes, and I'm not really worried about the balance rammifications of that, it opens up character concepts that don't fight themselves.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Okay, here you go.

@Blue, @Ruin Explorer, and @Snarf Zagyg, allow me to present Ivann Iron-Tusk for your consideration. He is unlike any bard I've ever seen.

View attachment 142823

Spoiler: Things I Learned

For versatility, the bard class relies a lot more on racial features than other classes do. For example, I went with Mountain Dwarf to get the weapon and armor proficiencies I needed for a "warrior" build. I considered going with High Elf to get a more useful cantrip, or Tiefling to get more useful spells. It's unfortunate, but I couldn't find a way to make a baseline human bard that could keep pace with other character classes.

The Lore bard was the obvious choice for a gap-filler. In my "mounted warrior" build here, the three extra proficiencies allowed me to pick up the Animal Handling skill that I needed, and a handful of other gladiator-style skills to better round out the character. It's essentially giving you the Skilled feat for free at 3rd level.

In conclusion: the Bard still isn't my cup of tea, but I'd rather play this bard than, say, an Eldritch Knight or a Sorcerer.

Spoiler: Gold and Equipment at 4th Level

You might be asking, "how did your 4th level character afford all that kit?" And that's a fair question! The answer is: umm...well, you see, to be perfectly honest I didn't really take money into consideration when I wrote up that character concept. I was kinda preoccupied with the whole "make a bard interesting" part of the challenge and kind of just went with my gut, ya know? But let me take a look and see how far off the mark I was...

According to D&D Beyond, a character is expected to have about 400gp worth of items by the time they reach 4th level, and 700gp by the time they reach 5th level. This doesn't include magic items, but magic items aren't in the Player's Handbook anyway so they aren't part of this challenge.

So as a 4th level character, Ivann should have between 400 and 699gp, depending on how long he's been 4th level. Looking at his equipment, he owns the following stuff:

• Elephant: 200gp
• Saddle: 60gp
• Barding: "x4." I didn't specify what kind of barding Thunderstep wears, so let's worry about that in a minute.
• Breastplate: 400gp
• Warhammer: free (starting equipment)
• Battleaxe: 10gp
• 2 Spears: 2 gp.
• Explorer's Pack: 10gp

The total so far: 682 gp.

Now let's assume that by the time he reached 4th level, Ivann had sold or traded that useless lute (35gp), the entertainer's pack (40gp), and leather armor (10gp) that all bards receive as starting equipment. Let's call that a credit of 85gp. Now, 682 - 85 = 597gp, which is comfortably within a typical 4th level character's wealth range. (A bit high, but not too bad for an accident!) If we assume that Ivann has been Level 4 for a couple of adventures now, he should be fine.

That doesn't leave a lot of room for the barding, though. Since armor for animals costs quadruple the amount for humans, and since I only have about 100gp left before I cross over into the 5th level character's turf, ol' Thunderstep will have to settle for leather barding (40gp) at best. It's probably better if we just forget about it entirely, at least until Ivann reaches 5th level.

Yeah this is enjoyably nuts! I would definitely play him for the duration of adventure, maybe not a campaign but an adventure for sure!

I wouldn't sweat the gold, the only really expensive thing is the breastplate, and could easily have been found on a dead enemy or something. Mountain Dwarf is a smart choice and the elephant is hilarious and should be pretty effective for a while at least, that's a ton of easy Advantage! Fun times with Dissonant Whispers too.

I do wonder if not going Valor/Sword is a mistake given you're about to hit 5th and would get an extra attack though, and this guy is clearly built around melee attacks.