D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Voadam]

I don't think you can ask the same question though, because there is not a major third party of "extremely powerful good beings". The closest you can get are the Celestials, you could have "Sa'Dew, Archangel of Light and Healing" but the celestials and angels specifically serve the gods, so you'd expect this being to be a right-hand of the god/goddess of light and healing.

the Demon Lords and Archdevils don't serve the Evil Gods. In fact, they fight each other, and the evil gods have angels in some editions, and demons and devils in others, which is even MORE bizarre to have Devils who have sworn allegiance to Asmodeus serving Bane, God of Tyranny.

If we had a major good faction that wasn't associated with the Gods, it could make more sense, but since we don't, the incongruity of having two major evil factions plus the GOO is odd.

5e angels are tied to good gods and 4e angels are tied to gods regardless of alignment, in other editions the ties to gods have varied dramatically.

In 5e though in the MM there are the Modrons of Law and the Slaadi of Chaos who are big planar alignment factions not tied to gods which leaves the Angels as the big good faction being tied to gods of benevolence as are many of the other Celestials.

 

[Minigiant]

This brings up a point that I personally have never really liked in most of the default ways D&D and tables in general have appeared to run the game... the idea that demons and devils can get "promoted" to become deities.

What exactly is so important about beings "gods" that make it the highest level of immortal being out in the cosmos? And why is every other extraplanar being considered "less than"? Who made this decision? Who gets to decide that this is the case? Who is the ones that actually "promotes" anyone in the first place?

2 things I like.

Divine Ranks.
Pantheons in charge.


A deity is any being with a divine rank.

A god is a deity in one of the pantheons in charge.

The Olympians, Titans, Aesir, Vanir, Jotun, Archangels, Archfey, Archfiends are all deities. They all have divine ranks.

Only the Olympians, Aesir, and Vanir are gods.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

5e angels are tied to good gods and 4e angels are tied to gods regardless of alignment, in other editions the ties to gods have varied dramatically.

In 5e though in the MM there are the Modrons of Law and the Slaadi of Chaos who are big planar alignment factions not tied to gods which leaves the Angels as the big good faction being tied to gods of benevolence as are many of the other Celestials.

There are also the Archons, Guardinals and Eladrin in older editions which were the good eqivilents. Angels were separate from all that.

 

[Helldritch]

Banak was a 23rd level cleric of Orcus in 1e H1 Bloodstone Pass. The 1e H1-4 series predates 2e.

In the 2e book they explain the situation a little more in his page 45 entry:

"Banak retained his 1st through 3rd level spell abilities in full when Orcus fell, and somehow he still manages to use a higher level spell now and then. No one knows whether he found a new god-figure to replace his deposed deity, whether he had a stockpile of scrolls hidden away, or whether some magic item empowers him with the more important spells. His associates never doubted that Banak would find some way to reclaim his lost power."

I got these, don't worry. But my point stands still. Banak was an exception. But that exception led to more and more exceptions which became a rule. At some point, if any god can give any spell, why would a cleric preach? What is its role? Spreading religion has always been something very important in Role Playing a cleric.

I had cleric (both players and non players) denying a character healing because they were not "believers" or "followers" of their religion. A small cure light wound would all they would do so as not to put their ethos into danger. Having two clerics of opposing or not allied deity of the same mythos would lead to a friendly (and sometimes not so friendly) contest to which cleric would convert the most people to his/her religion! Druids were the main other source of healing and represented an "old" faith in nature or nature like deities. They were a bit less powerful on the healing side and had big trouble vs the undead but they too, were vying for faith and spiritual energy from the believers. This made them a good choice for those that did not want to lean to heavily on the "convert people" side.

By moving this aspect away from the clerics and giving bards healing spells, they put the cleric in a strange place where they should be converting, but gain nothing by doing so. In fact, going this way means a lot of arguements from other players. Gods are supposed to be vying for worshippers (and thus the pantheons wars) but with no mechanics to give them a reason to do so, it becomes pointless. So at some point, do we really like that bards can heal? And what about artificers? They too can heal without a god...

I sometimes wonder if bards and artificers should be removed from my campaign...

 

[Scribe]

So at some point, do we really like that bards can heal? And what about artificers? They too can heal without a god...

I sometimes wonder if bards and artificers should be removed from my campaign...

I'd just remove the healing. If you like this classes otherwise. I keep Bards, but Artificer would/will require changes...

 

[Helldritch]

I'd just remove the healing. If you like this classes otherwise. I keep Bards, but Artificer would/will require changes...

A possible solution. But I can hear the thunderous hordes in the distance if I dare touch a core class...
I would have no problems with my players as bards and artificers are not in big demand but my friday night D&D had a bard in there (it's a third group made up of my twelve players and some others) we do a lot of cameo and we play at the hobby store.

 

[Lanefan]

post in error - please ignore...

 

[Lanefan]

This brings up a point that I personally have never really liked in most of the default ways D&D and tables in general have appeared to run the game... the idea that demons and devils can get "promoted" to become deities.

What exactly is so important about beings "gods" that make it the highest level of immortal being out in the cosmos? And why is every other extraplanar being considered "less than"? Who made this decision? Who gets to decide that this is the case? Who is the ones that actually "promotes" anyone in the first place?

In the metagame the DM does the promoting. In the fiction the promotion is often self-generated.

But in terms of in-game fiction... "generic" D&D doesn't really have an overbeing such as Ao (from the FR) that is the true tippy-top entity in the cosmos that is the one that determines levels, ranks, power etc of the extraplanar beings that exert influence over the Prime Material Plane. The kind of entity that would decide that "deities" are the highest rank a creature could be, and then could "promote" a demon or devil to "deity-status". Because without that... I just bounce off the idea that gods are more powerful than demons and devils as a matter of course, and thus it behooves the game to have "evil" gods to give evil characters someone to pray to. As others have said... I see no reason why "clerics" couldn't just pray to Mephistopheles or Baphomet to get their divine powers.

I have it that the very act of being able to grant those powers to Clerics is a key element of what defines a deity as a deity rather than just an immortal. I had to give this a lot of thought a while back due to player inquiry, leading to this page if anyone's interested:

Decast Pantheons Introduction

Note that I don't have Warlocks in my game; if I did I'm fairly sure I'd end up making them a variant of Cleric rather than of Wizard.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

What exactly is so important about beings "gods" that make it the highest level of immortal being out in the cosmos? And why is every other extraplanar being considered "less than"? Who made this decision? Who gets to decide that this is the case? Who is the ones that actually "promotes" anyone in the first place?

For my own part, "god"/"deity" connotes something more...fundamental to existence than these other things. A powerful devil is, to be sure, a dangerous supernatural force with a particular agenda, and an evil god is likewise a dangerous supernatural force with a particular agenda. But "godhood" connotes something more deeply-tied to the nature of reality.

This is part of why I prefer the 4e conception of what godhood means, as compared to earlier editions. In a very real sense, 4e gods are living concepts. Something about what hope IS, exists in Bahamut and in Pelor. Something about what storms are exists in Kord. Etc. When you kill Tiamat in the end of Scales of War, you aren't JUST defeating a powerful supernatural force of evil. You're literally making greed, envy, and malice less impactful in the world. That doesn't mean greed will cease to exist, but it does mean that her death should herald an age where the things she embodied are weakened:. Charity, kindness, and benevolence will flower in the wake of her destruction. These could, of course, eventually become problems in their own right (e.g. these good things being warped into extreme and oppressive things), but at least for the time being, vice will be diminished and virtue will thrive.

You wouldn't get that kind of result from killing a "mere" fiend or celestial. Kill a powerful angel and sure, the forces of good have lost a powerful member, but you haven't damaged the cause, you haven't hurt Good-ness itself. Take out a succubus, even the queen of the succubi, and you'll certainly cause a stir and probably weaken Abyssal ambitions due to the resulting infighting, but you won't make Evil-ness less prevalent. Killing a deity-level figure, on the other hand, has serious implications that go beyond the direct personal schemes and servants of the dead god.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Gods are the ones who's existence CAUSES all the stuff you (general 'you') take for granted in a game as "evil stuff n' things".

Devils exist. Why? Because there are EVIL GODS.
Hell exists. Why? Because there are EVIL GODS.
Evil Clerics exist. Why? Because there are EVIL GODS.

On the flip side...

Angels exist. Why? Because there are GOOD GODS.
The 7 Heavens exist. Why? Because there are GOOD GODS.
Good Clerics exist. Why? Because there are GOOD GODS.

I think the disconnect is assuming that "evil", "good", "neutrality", "demons/devils/daemons/demondands/etc", "angels/deva/etc", would all exist in the 'natural multiverse' if there were no gods. If a DM want's a campaign like that, go for it! But, that's not the default D&D bedrock; it's people, humanoids, monsters, demons, devils, dragons, angels, demi-gods and gods.

So, for me, the 'reason' for Evil gods is the same for Good ones and Neutral ones; because they are the creators of the universe...not the other way around. The fun thing about that is that the DM can then interpret what, how, why and when that "creation" happened.

^_^

Paul L. Ming