D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[pemerton]

Here's the thing.

In most of the older settings, evil gods and major fiends are very similar. This is because they were designed just heads of villainous organizations. Evil gods usually were for organized evil churches or to provide a group of "barbaric humanoids" with a healer/smiter. Major fiends usually gave you secret societies, mystery cults, or raving madmen who were heavily tilted to a basic human emotion or vice. But ultimately, an evil god and an evil non-god was 80% the same in crunch and fluff.

They were not designed to have cosmology or religious conversation or debate in game.

They were designed that after you one group of baddies who worshiped one figure, the DM can pluck and drop another group of baddies who worship somebody else to fight next.

I think this is pretty fair.

When 3rd edition came along, it lived with the explosion of internet use. Lore began to be discussion around the world in faster speeds. And this created criticisms. D&D's popularity grew and the increased communication allow more people to discuss offical and homebrew cosmoses, religions, and pantheons. Fans began to discuss the tropes of D&D more and pantheons and gods began to change. Newer pantheons were designed for in game discussion. Old Pantheons saw members change. And the evil gods and evil nongods began to separate.

I'm a bit less persuaded by this. I think some parts of Planescape probably did some of what you're describing here (not all of it - qv Dead Gods and its Orcus priest). But I agree that somewhere along the way there is a trend in some of the materials to take the cosmology seriously as a thing in itself.

Needless to say, I think that 4e reconciles the two parts of your post.

 

[Helldritch]

I've not said anything about any settings except GH, core/default 4e, and some critical remarks about Planescape.

I don't know what you mean be omnipresent - normally that means a being who is present at all parts of the universe, which is not true of any god as presented in any D&D material, to the best of my knowledge - and I don't know what you think it tells us about any differences between archfiends and evil gods.

Ok, you like Greyhawk and I strongly relate to that. I have almost everything that was printed on Greyhawk (if not in print, at least on PDF and always on the look out to get them in printed format). Unfortunately, Greyhawk though the default setting of many editions save 5ed, was always referenced and not included on the core 3 books that are MM, PHB and DMG.

Again, evil gods are a pretty much generic topic which in my mind requires a generic core book discussion. How demon princes and archdevils are treated on different othe books throughout the editions is, for me, irrelevant to the discussion at hands. As it is, the only lower plane creature mentioned to be a god in any core books of any edition is Asmodeus, and only since 4ed if I recall correctly as the Dawnwar pantheon was introduced right there.

Prior to that, refer to each MM and no fiends were ever considered gods.

And now let us expand to Greyhawk and 1ed stuff...
Unless you use the UA (ishhh... but that is me and it is entirerly personal taste) and own the DDG, you can't even considered that the fiends are gods. So it leaves us the box set. All gods are listed in the appendix for the gods and guess what? No fiends there either.

So we have to go for individual modules to see actually clerics of fiends. Where do they get these clerics? The DMG tells us that clerics can get spells up to second level by them sells and that higher level spells up to fifth are given by agents of a god with 5th level given by a demi god only. (This piece of info is repeated in the DDG by the way).

If we take a look at T1-4. The highest level priest is following Iuz. All the other priests are lower than this an unable to cast 5th level spells. But a few are able to cast 3rd and 4th level. Inconsistency? Not really. Agents of a deity can give access to up to 4th level spells and only a demi god can give access to 5rh level spells. Would it be conceivable for a god such as Iuz to give these priest their 4th level spells through demonic agents? After all, these agents, if you read the DMG, these agents can be angels or fiends. So a demon lord or an arch devil could well serve as a conduit for a God. Since Iuz had invested a lot in the temple, it would not be unusual for him to give spells to the various elemental priest in the temple to maintain and have a chance to cash in on his investment.

By extension, it could be argued that fiend, though not gods but possible agents of a god, could grant up to 4th level. This would be extending a bit their powers but it might be an acceptable compromise.

Through all other adventures fiend worshipping clerics are lower than 9th level so, the problem of fifth level does not arise until... D1-3, Vault of the Drow...

Lolth was always a strange being from the beginning. Demoness or goddess? As the only demoness able to give higher level spells, it always struck me that Lolth was a goddess living in the Abyss.

So in 1ed, that rule was always enacted. Fiends could have clerics, but these clerics were limited.

For Hextor. Hextor is allied with hell. Would it be surprising that for having access to the armies of hells that he would help clerics of some arch devils to get higher level spells? After all, both Hextor and the Archdevil wins. Hextor wins access to devil legions and the devil wins a soul and many more as a cleric with some power unheard of can attract many followers (if not worshippers) and thus would gain more souls for the archdevil. Hextor loses but a few souls that might not even worship him in the first place. A win/win agreement.

Now you have it. Everything falls into place and it would not even be the first time such agreements/trick would have been used by the gods. Isn't there a deity that continued to give spells to clerics of a rival deity she had slain to maintain the illusion that the goddess was still living so that she would slowly corrupt the clergy to worship her, thus adding an other domain to her portfolio? I think it was something with Shar or something along Darkness and illusions...

In fact the only truly out of sync example that comes to mind as always been Banak in H1, Bloodstone Pass. Where does that f@$%#%#%%r gets his spells. The only thing that ever came to my mind has always been Banak was an exception. As in real life, there is always an exception.

 

[pemerton]

evil gods are a pretty much generic topic which in my mind requires a generic core book discussion. How demon princes and archdevils are treated on different othe books throughout the editions is, for me, irrelevant to the discussion at hands. As it is, the only lower plane creature mentioned to be a god in any core books of any edition is Asmodeus, and only since 4ed if I recall correctly as the Dawnwar pantheon was introduced right there.

Prior to that, refer to each MM and no fiends were ever considered gods.

Upthread I posted the multiple references from the AD&D MM and PHB that put fiends on a par with gods: the Sahuagin entry, the description of Asmodeus as ruler of the Nine Hells, which - in the PHB - are said to be the home of gods, the entries in the Gate and Shapechange spells, etc.

You seem to be just ignoring all that.

Unless you use the UA (ishhh... but that is me and it is entirerly personal taste) and own the DDG, you can't even considered that the fiends are gods.

This is not true. See the material I mentioned just above, and set out in some detail not too far upthread.

So it leaves us the box set. All gods are listed in the appendix for the gods and guess what? No fiends there either.

That same book tells us that the Horned Society is a land of devil-worshippers.

So we have to go for individual modules to see actually clerics of fiends.

No. They are in the Sahuagin entry in the MM. As I have mentioned, now, about half-a-dozen times in this thread.

Where do they get these clerics? The DMG tells us that clerics can get spells up to second level by them sells and that higher level spells up to fifth are given by agents of a god with 5th level given by a demi god only. (This piece of info is repeated in the DDG by the way).

I'm aware of the DMG rule. I've been aware of it since about 1984. Although it does not say that only a demigod can grant 5th level spells. Here is the actual text (DMG p 38):

Cleric spells of third, fourth, and fifth level are obtained through the aid of supernatural servants of the cleric's deity. That is, through meditation and prayer, the cleric's needs are understood and the proper spells are given to him or her by the minions of the deity.​

There is no discussion of demigods on p 38 beyond a reference to "the minions" as "angels, demi-gods, or whatever".

If you review my posts upthread, you'll also see that the DMG rule is different, on this point, from the PHB rule (on p 40; it treats 1st to 4th level spells as the DMG treats 1st and 2nd level ones, and treats 5th to 7th level spells as the DMG treats 6th and 7th level ones). Why did Gygax change the rule? Who knows! But the fact that it changed from PHB to DMG suggests that it wasn't something to which Gygax himself was super-wedded or on which he had a firm opinion.

If we take a look at T1-4. The highest level priest is following Iuz. All the other priests are lower than this an unable to cast 5th level spells. But a few are able to cast 3rd and 4th level. Inconsistency? Not really. Agents of a deity can give access to up to 4th level spells and only a demi god can give access to 5rh level spells. Would it be conceivable for a god such as Iuz to give these priest their 4th level spells through demonic agents? After all, these agents, if you read the DMG, these agents can be angels or fiends. So a demon lord or an arch devil could well serve as a conduit for a God. Since Iuz had invested a lot in the temple, it would not be unusual for him to give spells to the various elemental priest in the temple to maintain and have a chance to cash in on his investment.

By extension, it could be argued that fiend, though not gods but possible agents of a god, could grant up to 4th level. This would be extending a bit their powers but it might be an acceptable compromise.

Through all other adventures fiend worshipping clerics are lower than 9th level so, the problem of fifth level does not arise until... D1-3, Vault of the Drow...

Lolth was always a strange being from the beginning. Demoness or goddess? As the only demoness able to give higher level spells, it always struck me that Lolth was a goddess living in the Abyss.

So in 1ed, that rule was always enacted. Fiends could have clerics, but these clerics were limited.

The "rule" is one that you have made up by (i) introducing a distinction between 4th and 5th level spells that is arbitrary relative to the DMG rule you cite, and (ii) deciding that Lolth is not a demon but a god! But in D3 and T1 she is described as a Demon Queen/Demoness. In the FF she is under the Demon entry. (Though as @Voadam has pointed out, she has "Lesser Goddess" next to her name in brackets.)

Hextor is allied with hell. Would it be surprising that for having access to the armies of hells that he would help clerics of some arch devils to get higher level spells? After all, both Hextor and the Archdevil wins. Hextor wins access to devil legions and the devil wins a soul and many more as a cleric with some power unheard of can attract many followers (if not worshippers) and thus would gain more souls for the archdevil. Hextor loses but a few souls that might not even worship him in the first place. A win/win agreement.

Now you have it. Everything falls into place and it would not even be the first time such agreements/trick would have been used by the gods.

This is all your imagination at work. Nothing in the texts suggests that it's the case.

Of course you're allowed to imagine whatever you want - that's part of the point of the game! But the fact that you can conjecture a way of reconciling the Horned Society as devil-worshippers with an inability of devils to grant spells, which puts Hextor at the centre of things, doesn't mean that is what the book says.

My interpretation, which is equally supported by both the Sahuagin entry in the MM, the description of the Horned Society in the GH Folio/boxed set, Ed Greenwood's article in Dragon 91, and later on seemingly confirmed by the scenario in the City of GH boxed set, has been that the Horned Society are devil worshippers and hence include in their ranks anti-clerics, including evil high priests, who get spells from Asmodeus and other devils.

 

[Maxperson]

There is no such rule in AD&D materials up to and including the original MotP. There was no such rule in early AD&D 2nd ed, when the Greyhawk City boxed set was published. There is no such rule in 4e D&D.

The rule did exist in 2e, though. So if you're playing 1e or 4e, the rule is absent. If you are playing 2e, 3e or 5e, there is a hard rule that exists that says archfiends cannot cast spells. To have them cast spells you have to invoke the optional rules presented, but the default says no.

I'm not terribly persuaded by 2e not having the rule early on. 1e came out in 1977, but it wasn't until 1979 that the DMG came out, so whole swathes of rules that are taken for granted as core 1e didn't exist in early AD&D.

Those are not trivial portions of the history of published D&D material.

They also don't have much weight outside of their edition.

And the only rules that I've been pointed to are in sourcebooks like Fiendish Codex, BoVd, and Guide to the Hells, none of which I have reason to think are more authoritative than (say) the Sahuagin entry in the original MM, or the description of the Horned Society as devil-worshippers in the original GH folio and boxed set.


Sahuagin are described as devil worshippers. Likewise the Horned Society. In the original DDG, the Ixitxachitl are described as worshipping Demogorgon. In the 4e MM, in the passages I've quoted just upthread, the terms devotee, follower and worshipper are used interchangeably in relation to Orcus and his cults.

Whereas I have a hard time seeing sourcebooks designed to be definitive on fiends, the Nine Hells, etc. as less authoritative than a monster blurb in the monster manual. The purpose of sourcebooks like the Fiendish Codex is to tell you that this is how fiends work. That's not going to be overruled by a MM entry that includes a blurb that's only 7 words long. "The sahuagin worship a great devil-shark."

When I compare the text about Nerull to the text I quoted just upthread about Orcus, and compare both to the text about devils, I don't see any profound difference. Orcus and Nerull both have cults that involve bloody sacrifice. I'm pretty sure that the Orcus litany is as ghastly as Nerull's. And I'm sure that someone who seeks greatest evil for their enjoyment and gain might turn to a devil as much as to Nerull!

Nerull is the god of death, not undeath. Orcus is Undeath, not death. That's a profound difference.

Hextor has no reality beyond what is published in certain texts.

Hextor in the WotG is interchangeable with various other gods (from DDG) and fiends. I know because I've done the changes/equivalences when running GH-based campaigns and it didn't matter! From p 69 of the Guide to the WoGH, "Hextor, Champion of Evil, Herald of Hell, Scourge of Battle" - he could be substituted for Bane, or treated as an archdevil, or even a demon in a campaign that is more casual about the Lower Planes, and it wouldn't change his core. His core being that (i) he has six arms and (ii) he is brother and rival of Heironeous. (I've just looked at the description on p 91 of the 3E PHB. It conforms entirely to what I've just said. And this is the sole premise for Speaker in Dreams.)

And the text of Hextor in the 3e PHB is god of Tyranny, War, Conflict and Destruction. That is also part of his core. In order to substitute him for an archdevil, you'd need one that had those exact same portfolios. Otherwise you are losing some very profound parts of the world lore. Asmodeus does not have War, Conflict and Destruction. That he is also tyranny does not make Hextor redundant. At best it makes only Asmodeus redundant, except that Asmodeus rules the 9 Hells and has an iron fist on the entire 9th layer. Hextor, if he even lives in the Hells, only has a small domain on one layer, so Asmodeus isn't redundant, either. Those difference are pretty large.

A module is something that fits into the setting, so if you have a module that you plop into Greyhawk that doesn't get into as much detail as the setting does, the setting details are included in whatever details the module gives. The module doesn't change Hextor from being the god of Tyranny, War, Conflict and Destruction with clerics into a being that just has a few cultists.

 

[Voadam]

Sure. But how is this more canonical than the scenario in City of GH boxed set? Or the cleric of Orcus in the Dead Gods module?

I mean, it's all just stuff that is being published. And what is shows is that, when the rubber hits the road - ie when authors of scenarios want cult leaders and evil high priest-types and the like - they do not hesitate to have them be clerics of Asmodeus or of Orcus, even if there is some other book published, or going to be published in the future, that tells them not to.

How is the 2e sourcebook specifically on devils more canonical for 2e's archdevils than a 1 sheet adventure in a boxed set city supplement for a specific setting?

1e WoG boxed set page 26 stated the religion of the Horned Society was deviltry "and its leading Hierarch is purported to be an evil high priest of the 18th level." The 1989 2e City of Greyhawk does have a one sheet adventure To Slay a Hierarch, that has a priest 14 "Here, Vazirian the Hierarch is busying himself with some last-minute proofreading of a new Unholy Text of Asmodeus." I think it is a reasonable assumption that he is a priest of Asmodeus continuing on from 1e's Horned Society setup.

1992's From the Ashes seems to retcon the Horned Society priests to Hextor or Nerull however. Page 28 in discussing the Horned Society "Priests of Hextor and Nerull dominated the upper echelons and became the governing Hierarchs, readily aided by powerful bandit warriors and a few mages."

Orcus is a separate situation, 2e is filled with Tanar'ri (Demon) Lords as lesser gods and demigods. The 2e Monster Mythology has entries for Baphomet, Demogorgon, Juiblex, Kostchtchie, Lolth, Sess'Inek, and Yeenoghu (though not Orcus).

I feel there is a lot of evidence to support the claim that Gygax considered demon lords and archdevils to be deities and that his D&D materials treated them as such, though usually without explicitly saying they were deities. Later D&D had different takes at different points for different beings.

 

[Helldritch]

Upthread I posted the multiple references from the AD&D MM and PHB that put fiends on a par with gods: the Sahuagin entry, the description of Asmodeus as ruler of the Nine Hells, which - in the PHB - are said to be the home of gods, the entries in the Gate and Shapechange spells, etc.

You seem to be just ignoring all that.


This is not true. See the material I mentioned just above, and set out in some detail not too far upthread.


That same book tells us that the Horned Society is a land of devil-worshippers.


No. They are in the Sahuagin entry in the MM. As I have mentioned, now, about half-a-dozen times in this thread.


I'm aware of the DMG rule. I've been aware of it since about 1984. Although it does not say that only a demigod can grant 5th level spells. Here is the actual text (DMG p 38):

Cleric spells of third, fourth, and fifth level are obtained through the aid of supernatural servants of the cleric's deity. That is, through meditation and prayer, the cleric's needs are understood and the proper spells are given to him or her by the minions of the deity.​

There is no discussion of demigods on p 38 beyond a reference to "the minions" as "angels, demi-gods, or whatever".

If you review my posts upthread, you'll also see that the DMG rule is different, on this point, from the PHB rule (on p 40; it treats 1st to 4th level spells as the DMG treats 1st and 2nd level ones, and treats 5th to 7th level spells as the DMG treats 6th and 7th level ones). Why did Gygax change the rule? Who knows! But the fact that it changed from PHB to DMG suggests that it wasn't something to which Gygax himself was super-wedded or on which he had a firm opinion.


The "rule" is one that you have made up by (i) introducing a distinction between 4th and 5th level spells that is arbitrary relative to the DMG rule you cite, and (ii) deciding that Lolth is not a demon but a god! But in D3 and T1 she is described as a Demon Queen/Demoness. In the FF she is under the Demon entry. (Though as @Voadam has pointed out, she has "Lesser Goddess" next to her name in brackets.)


This is all your imagination at work. Nothing in the texts suggests that it's the case.

Of course you're allowed to imagine whatever you want - that's part of the point of the game! But the fact that you can conjecture a way of reconciling the Horned Society as devil-worshippers with an inability of devils to grant spells, which puts Hextor at the centre of things, doesn't mean that is what the book says.

My interpretation, which is equally supported by both the Sahuagin entry in the MM, the description of the Horned Society in the GH Folio/boxed set, Ed Greenwood's article in Dragon 91, and later on seemingly confirmed by the scenario in the City of GH boxed set, has been that the Horned Society are devil worshippers and hence include in their ranks anti-clerics, including evil high priests, who get spells from Asmodeus and other devils.

And if you re-read what I have written, you will see that I did not contest the devil worshipping stuff. In fact, these can access 4th level spells with the "interpretation " that I wrote that goes exactly in the way you are describing. So even if Sahuagins worship devils and ixixcha... ixixtcha... the devil manta rays worship demongorgon they can still cast spells of 4th level or less which is in accordance to their entry in the MM.

And being a rival of a god does not make you one. It just means that you are opposing them and you think that you are on par with them. A lot of boxers thought they could rival with Mike Tyson and we know how they ended up...

As for arbitrarily differentiating 4th and 5th level spells. Since you like to cite DDG, which you keep insisting on since it allows fiends to lesser gods, then read the specifications in there. 5th levels spells are only granted by demi gods or higher. Tjis was to clarify the rule and this was clarified in a dragon article too (which I would need to find but I do not have access to these right now) as in the rules, it is stated but not clear enough and could lead some DM to not male the distinction. So if you add, the DDG I can opt not to consider the archfiends to be gods as the wording say and 5th level spells are distinct in acquisition as per both DMG and DDG.

You claimed that this is my imagination for Hextor, but his alliance with devil is well know and right there in his description. If you add the From the Ashes box set and the Ivid the Undying reference book, it is confirmed even more.

As for Lolth, why do you think I considered her a goddess? It was written in her description right from the beginning.

What I contest is not that these can not have clerics, it is the power they can get. They are limited to 4th level spells or less. If you take care to read, you will see that none of these races ever have clerics higher than 8th level. In fact the more I read, the more I am convinced that with such limitations on their clerics, the more more I am convinced that fiend worshipping is fringed at best. Especially when even the weaker gods can effectively raise dead and not your "religion".

I believe e that the DDG brought the distinction to be on par with what the various clerics of fiends were able to get in the MM. The fact that the deification of some Archdevils and some other fiends was viewed as optional by a lot explains the clarification made in the DDG.

So yep, fiends can have clerics, but their church is weak and small as their clerics are pretty limited compared to what clerics of true gods can achieve.

 

[Voadam]

I'm aware of the DMG rule. I've been aware of it since about 1984. Although it does not say that only a demigod can grant 5th level spells. Here is the actual text (DMG p 38):

Cleric spells of third, fourth, and fifth level are obtained through the aid of supernatural servants of the cleric's deity. That is, through meditation and prayer, the cleric's needs are understood and the proper spells are given to him or her by the minions of the deity.
There is no discussion of demigods on p 38 beyond a reference to "the minions" as "angels, demi-gods, or whatever".

If you review my posts upthread, you'll also see that the DMG rule is different, on this point, from the PHB rule (on p 40; it treats 1st to 4th level spells as the DMG treats 1st and 2nd level ones, and treats 5th to 7th level spells as the DMG treats 6th and 7th level ones). Why did Gygax change the rule? Who knows! But the fact that it changed from PHB to DMG suggests that it wasn't something to which Gygax himself was super-wedded or on which he had a firm opinion.

You beat me to it, though it changes again in 1e Deities and Demigods for distinctions between demigods, lesser gods, and greater gods. Page 9:

"When a DM is deciding which gods will be commonly worshiped in his or her campaign, he must be aware of the fact that not all gods are equally powerful, and that this affects their ability to grant spells to their clerics. As is explained in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, 1st and 2nd level spells are gained through the cleric‘s knowledge and faith. All other spells are gained through prayer. Third. fourth and fifth level spells are granted by the supernatural servants or minions of the cleric’s deity. These servants range up to demigod level. Clerics whose patrons are demigods (and not lesser or greater gods) will receive their 3rd through 5th level spells directly from their deity. A demigod cannot gront spells above 5th level, so a cleric of a demigod could never receive 6th or 7th level spells.
Sixth and seventh level spells are granted to clerics directly from their deities. Only greater gods may grant 7th level spells.

 

[pemerton]

How is the 2e sourcebook specifically on devils more canonical for 2e's archdevils than a 1 sheet adventure in a boxed set city supplement for a specific setting?

Yes. Each is just one author's take. The boxed set authors include Douglas Niles and Carl Sargent. They're not minor figures in the halls of D&D authors!

1e WoG boxed set page 26 stated the religion of the Horned Society was deviltry "and its leading Hierarch is purported to be an evil high priest of the 18th level." The 1989 2e City of Greyhawk does have a one sheet adventure To Slay a Hierarch, that has a priest 14 "Here, Vazirian the Hierarch is busying himself with some last-minute proofreading of a new Unholy Text of Asmodeus." I think it is a reasonable assumption that he is a priest of Asmodeus continuing on from 1e's Horned Society setup.

Yes. I've posted all this upthread.

1992's From the Ashes seems to retcon the Horned Society priests to Hextor or Nerull however. Page 28 in discussing the Horned Society "Priests of Hextor and Nerull dominated the upper echelons and became the governing Hierarchs, readily aided by powerful bandit warriors and a few mages."

Going back to From the Ashes has been on my to-do list but I haven't yet. I'm not surprised that is subs in Hextor; Nerull seems to me to make less sense.

Orcus is a separate situation, 2e is filled with Tanar'ri (Demon) Lords as lesser gods and demigods. The 2e Monster Mythology has entries for Baphomet, Demogorgon, Juiblex, Kostchtchie, Lolth, Sess'Inek, and Yeenoghu (though not Orcus).

As I've posted several times now, Dead Gods - a fairly well known Planescape module - has a priest of Orcus, with spells up to 5th level.

I feel there is a lot of evidence to support the claim that Gygax considered demon lords and archdevils to be deities and that his D&D materials treated them as such, though usually without explicitly saying they were deities.

Yes. I've made this point upthread - it's most of what I've been saying in all my contributions to this thread. (Also that Ed Greenwood, also not a minor figure, clearly thought the same at least in the mid-80s, given his Dragon 91 article.)

Later D&D had different takes at different points for different beings.

But a number of those takes were pretty similar to Gygax, as the 2nd ed examples, the 4e examples, etc illustrate.

Which all goes back to the thread topic: is there some systematic distinction between evil gods and archdevils/demon princes to be found in the D&D corpus? I think the answer is no - going all the way back to Men & Magic with its anti-clerics and evil high priests; and B2 and T1.

 

[Voadam]

And if you re-read what I have written, you will see that I did not contest the devil worshipping stuff. In fact, these can access 4th level spells with the "interpretation " that I wrote that goes exactly in the way you are describing. So even if Sahuagins worship devils and ixixcha... ixixtcha... the devil manta rays worship demongorgon they can still cast spells of 4th level or less which is in accordance to their entry in the MM.

And being a rival of a god does not make you one. It just means that you are opposing them and you think that you are on par with them. A lot of boxers thought they could rival with Mike Tyson and we know how they ended up...

As for arbitrarily differentiating 4th and 5th level spells. Since you like to cite DDG, which you keep insisting on since it allows fiends to lesser gods, then read the specifications in there. 5th levels spells are only granted by demi gods or higher. Tjis was to clarify the rule and this was clarified in a dragon article too (which I would need to find but I do not have access to these right now) as in the rules, it is stated but not clear enough and could lead some DM to not male the distinction. So if you add, the DDG I can opt not to consider the archfiends to be gods as the wording say and 5th level spells are distinct in acquisition as per both DMG and DDG.

You claimed that this is my imagination for Hextor, but his alliance with devil is well know and right there in his description. If you add the From the Ashes box set and the Ivid the Undying reference book, it is confirmed even more.

As for Lolth, why do you think I considered her a goddess? It was written in her description right from the beginning.

What I contest is not that these can not have clerics, it is the power they can get. They are limited to 4th level spells or less. If you take care to read, you will see that none of these races ever have clerics higher than 8th level. In fact the more I read, the more I am convinced that with such limitations on their clerics, the more more I am convinced that fiend worshipping is fringed at best. Especially when even the weaker gods can effectively raise dead and not your "religion".

I believe e that the DDG brought the distinction to be on par with what the various clerics of fiends were able to get in the MM. The fact that the deification of some Archdevils and some other fiends was viewed as optional by a lot explains the clarification made in the DDG.

So yep, fiends can have clerics, but their church is weak and small as their clerics are pretty limited compared to what clerics of true gods can achieve.

I don't think that works as written in the 1e DMG.

"It is well known to all experienced players that clerics, unlike magic-users, have their spells bestowed upon them by their respective deities. By meditation and prayer the clerics receive the specially empowered words which form the various spells possible for them — although as with the spells of magic-users, the utterance of any given set of key sounds not only causes the desired spell to take effect, but it likewise wipes the memory of the sounds from the mind of the utterer, as each set of sounds is an energy trigger (see SPELL CASTING). Of utmost importance, then, is the relationship between cleric and deity.
Each cleric must have his or her own deity, so when a new player opts to become a cleric (including a druid), you must inform them as to which deities exist in your campaign milieu and allow the individual to select which one of them he or she will serve."

If a non-god demon were working for a god they could grant level 3-5 spells to a cleric of that god. They cannot grant it to someone who is a cleric of themself and not of the god.

1e DMG RAW does not support being a cleric of a servant of a god if they are not a god themself.

In D3 Lolth has clerics and is continuously referenced as a demon queen and it is not until the Fiend Folio that she is stated to be a goddess.

T1-4 has reference to Zuggtmoy's clerics who she consulted before setting up the Temple of Elemental Evil and before any deals with Iuz came about.

 

[Maxperson]

That same book tells us that the Horned Society is a land of devil-worshippers.

That doesn't mean that they were granted spells, though. You could have a land of people that worship the great rock. It's just a rock that sits in the center of the capitol city and is attributed(falsely) with all kinds of miracles. Nor does it mean that they all worship devils. There could be some that also worship Hextor and those are the ones who are clerics. "A land of devil-worshippers." doesn't tell you much when it comes to whether fiends and gods are the same or close to the same.

No. They are in the Sahuagin entry in the MM. As I have mentioned, now, about half-a-dozen times in this thread.

I can't find this in the 1e MM, but I do see it in the 2e MM. Interestingly, the 1e entry calls the Suhuagin themselves "seadevils" or "devil men of the deep." And it mentions their creation by LE gods(not devils). The 2e entry has one throwaway line about "The sahuagin worship a great devil-shark." If you look at the Monster Mythology, though, Sekolah is a god that swims the 9 hells and has a rivalry with an Archdevil. It doesn't say that Sekolah is a devil himself.

That "devil" language could just be descriptive and not actually mean that Sekolah is a devil god. After all, 1e used the same descriptive language with the Sahuagin themselves. I don't think anyone actually thinks that the Sahuagin are devils, even though they are called "seadevils" or "devil men of the deep.). Even if you believe that it's not descriptive and that Sekolah is an Archdevil, he is still explicitly an actual god, listed in the Monster Mythology, which would explain why the devil worshipping Sahuagin get cleric spells.