D&D General Did D&D Die with TSR?

[QuentinGeorge]

I believe that was 2e.

IIRC Arneson was getting royalties on the 1e MM and they had a legal fight that he won about the 1e MMII with the ruling mostly focusing about the name so we got the 2e Monstrous Compendiums which he did not get royalties for.

No, that was definitely 1st edition. Gygax lost the court case so he ended up having to pay royalties, but a lot of the rationale for creating AD&D and D&D as separate lines was to restrict Arneson's royalties to D&D proper.

There was no need for a separate AD&D game, and indeed, Holmes version of basic suggested a transition from those rules, directly to the Players Handbook. Under Cook and Moldvay and later, Mentzer, a separate line was created.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I believe that was 2e.

IIRC Arneson was getting royalties on the 1e MM and they had a legal fight that he won about the 1e MMII with the ruling mostly focusing about the name so we got the 2e Monstrous Compendiums which he did not get royalties for.

Gygax's claim was specifically Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is a different game from the pre-existing Dungeons and Dragons and therefore he didn't have to pay Arneson royalties. That was 1e.

The Monstrous Manual 2 was another lawsuit (I believe that Arneson sued TSR a total of five times).

 

[Aldarc]

Combat in D&D has always been sport rather than war. You have literally ever since the early days had an XP bounty for killing things, and there has never in any edition of D&D been significant long term consequences for getting injured. And no injury death spirals. Either you are at full health, ready to go, or you're dropped.

The Combat As Sport/Combat As War thing has always reminded me of a group of paintballers sneering at a group of lazer-tag players. Meanwhile I cut my RP teeth on GURPS and WFRP 1e where injuries actually happen to your characters rather than just being in or out depending on whether you're splattered in paint/the laser sensor has picked anything up. And combat is therefore something to be much more feared because you continually feel those consequences.

Then please take it up with the OSR community.

 

[Haldrik]

Here are some of the biggest differences that I was hung up on when first learning 3rd edition:

1) tactical movement on a grid
2) attacks of opportunity (for nearly everything)
3) feats
4) class "balance"
5) Challenge Rating
6) 0-level spells, cantrips, and ever-present spells
7) prestige classes
8) the d20 DC system for skills (that took away all DM rulings, as everything was codified)
9) character wealth by level baked into the system

 

[cmad1977]

Nope.

 

[Blue Orange]

I mean, people are still playing D&D. There was a substantial shift in 3e. If you liked pre-3e D&D there are hundreds of OSR retroclones you can play with.

 

[GreyLord]

There was also Ghostwalk, but it was released in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition era, so most people don't remember it.

Ghostwalk may be the most imaginative and creative idea for D&D ever...but it was so strange I didn't even understand how it worked completely and never implemented it.

You live after death, but do you ever die?

 

[wicked cool]

In the authors defense there was a period where D&D did die and there have been radical changes to the game. There was a period of time you couldnt find the book (mid to late 90's) and it was pretty much magic the gathering. even miniatures companies disappeared such as Ral Rartha etc. At the time i found a new group that was still playing 2nd and i had to order an old copy off rules on ebay for a friend

Then 3.0 in 2000 and then the started releasing the new edition draft rules online for 3.5 in 2003.

Biggest change in D&D for me is low level monsters and even some mid level monsters are not as scary as they were back then.

Back in my day lol so many games you were lucky to survive an entire module and sometimes an encounter. TPK was greater than 50/50

Examples-giant spiders were super deadly before 3rd edition if you were in a small group. Same with ghouls

if you died a lot of times the cleric didnt have raise dead. If you were say a dwarf there was a chance the only spell the cleric had was to bring you back on a random table where you were lucky to come back as a humanoid

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

In the authors defense there was a period where D&D did die and there have been radical changes to the game. There was a period of time you couldnt find the book (mid to late 90's) and it was pretty much magic the gathering. even miniatures companies disappeared such as Ral Rartha etc. At the time i found a new group that was still playing 2nd and i had to order an old copy off rules on ebay for a friend

Yes. I thought it was all over back then and that Dungeons and Dragons had died. Magic the Gathering overwhelmed the hobby, and it became increasingly harder to even find Dungeons and Dragons. Then, the sweet irony of Wizards of the Coast, creator of Magic, swooping in to rescue Dungeons and Dragons.

I'm sure TSR was in bad shape before Magic the Gathering, but it sure seemed to be the last nail in the coffin.

 

[Retreater]

Here are some differences that were baked into the rules, pre-WotC

1) Monsters were scary and invulnerable to basic attacks.
If you wanted to harm a werewolf, you had to have silvered weapons. You had to study its weaknesses. If you contracted lycanthropy, you had to perform a ritual to undo the effects. (Wolfsbane, full moon night, killing the werewolf that gave it to you.) [Today this is damage reduction - so it effectively just has double hit points. Lycanthropy is a simple saving throw or cured with a spell.] See also mummies, vampires, etc. The monsters actually resembled creatures of folklore and legend, not just stat blocks made to fit the game.

2) Spells were open to creative use.
You could use Command to issue any number of commands, instead of a pre-ordained list to hamper creativity and usefulness. You could cast Light on the eyes of a creature to temporarily blind it.

3) Spells were effective
Hold Person, Sleep, etc., lasted long enough to sway a combat. Now, they last for a round - if you're lucky enough to have a creature fail its save. This means that the only option available to most parties is to swat at an enemy until its HP are whittled away.

4) Poisons were scary
Now they're just HP damage, maybe giving you disadvantage for a round.

5) Passive Perception
Finding traps and spotting enemies required paying attention to the fiction, the DM's description. Interacting and asking questions. Now, you don't even have to roll a die. You can play on your phone, scroll through social media.

My statement isn't that post-3.0 D&D isn't a fun time. It's that maybe enough has changed that it's a different game from TSR-era D&D. Like as different as Savage Worlds is from Genesys.