Playing Dragon PCs

[doctorbadwolf]

To add to the excellent suggestions above - troupe style play a la Ars Magica cold be useful here. Everyone has a dragon character and a dragon rider character but they excel in different areas of the story.

For a game where everyone is a dragon or dragonrider, absolutely.

Be aware that Rifts is Science Fantasy, so you have dragons, plasma guns, giant robots, etc.
Palladium (the setting, not the system) is fantasy only from the same company.
Also the palladium rules (system) used for palladium (setting) and rifts are famous for being incomprehensible.

They don't overshadow the dragons when not riding them. But when they do you have to ignore that the dragon is actually the one in charge, especially when the rider is using melee weapons which are completely useless in most instances in combat.
And don't forget crossbows. When you do not have firearms they are better than bows for fighting on a dragon because you can hold the shot till you have a clear line of fire.

Hmm. I'm not sure crossbows work unless you solve for the arrows (most crossbows use arrows, not bolts) easily being knocked loose. A bow works great in terms of timing shots, it's just arrows flying reliably in the more erratic wind above ground level that I worry about. I probably don't want to be that nitty gritty, though.

But as I mentioned above, I like the Temeraire solution the best

• Multiple people on the dragon.
• Using firearms to slowly whittle down other dragons and kill their crew.
• Formation flying is important.

That is definitely a cool thing, but wouldn't fit the fiction at play, here.

Another thing Temeraire does well. Dragons do not think like humans, but are not so alien as to be unrelatable.

Yeah basically, that's the idea. The game has playable nature spirits, so different but basically relatable is the general idea.

 

[Ixal]

Hmm. I'm not sure crossbows work unless you solve for the arrows (most crossbows use arrows, not bolts) easily being knocked loose. A bow works great in terms of timing shots, it's just arrows flying reliably in the more erratic wind above ground level that I worry about. I probably don't want to be that nitty gritty, though.

Bows are actually very bad in timing shots because unlike what movies show you do not hold arrows in the bow and wait till the target presents itself. You draw and shoot instantly. Crossbows on the other hand can be kept loaded and you can wait for the perfect shot.
But it all depends on what you want to simulate.

Yeah basically, that's the idea. The game has playable nature spirits, so different but basically relatable is the general idea.

Some examples from the books (in spoilers in case someone wants to read them)

Spoiler

• Dragons only own what they actively defend. If they are not on sight and its not in their lair they don't own it (although that can be overwritten by education).
• Dragons are very protective of eggs, not only their own ones. But once the eggs are hatched they lose all interest in the hatchling. In the books they literally hunt a egg thief across a whole continent, but when they found out that the egg has hatched in the meantime they stop caring instantly.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

I quite liked the Temeraire book series because it breaks with many of the traditional dragon rider tropes in favour of things that makes more sense. Sadly I didn't penetrate into the RPG market.

Isn't that set in the early 19th century? Would those guns be accurate enough to use like that?

I do agree that if you want dragon-based combat you might as well just let players play the dragon.

 

[Ixal]

Isn't that set in the early 19th century? Would those guns be accurate enough to use like that?

I do agree that if you want dragon-based combat you might as well just let players play the dragon.

Napoleoninc war.
And the books are a bit unclear if those are muskets or rifles. But even muskets are accurate enough at around 50 yards.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Bows are actually very bad in timing shots because unlike what movies show you do not hold arrows in the bow and wait till the target presents itself. You draw and shoot instantly. Crossbows on the other hand can be kept loaded and you can wait for the perfect shot.
But it all depends on what you want to simulate.

I know people who actually do mounted archery. This is not correct. Bows are excellent for mounted archery, and we can know that without asking modern mounted archers who do it as a sport because it was the most common type of cavalry in all of Asia for thousands of years. Not only that, but you don’t keep a crossbow readied for very long without shooting. It puts needless strain on the moving parts (arms and cord) and it risks accidental fire, or loss of the arrow.

It is common in mounted archery to hold 3-5 arrows in the same hand as the bow, and to knock one as you approach the next target.

Some examples from the books (in spoilers in case someone wants to read them)

Spoiler

• Dragons only own what they actively defend. If they are not on sight and its not in their lair they don't own it (although that can be overwritten by education).
• Dragons are very protective of eggs, not only their own ones. But once the eggs are hatched they lose all interest in the hatchling. In the books they literally hunt a egg thief across a whole continent, but when they found out that the egg has hatched in the meantime they stop caring instantly.

That’s interesting. It feels very D&D dragon, though I think there are D&D novels that depict dragons training their young until their adolescent and able to function as a fearsome predator on their own and seek out their own territory. But D&D isnt even consistent with stuff like that, so…

 

[Ixal]

I know people who actually do mounted archery. This is not correct. Bows are excellent for mounted archery, and we can know that without asking modern mounted archers who do it as a sport because it was the most common type of cavalry in all of Asia for thousands of years. Not only that, but you don’t keep a crossbow readied for very long without shooting. It puts needless strain on the moving parts (arms and cord) and it risks accidental fire, or loss of the arrow.

It is common in mounted archery to hold 3-5 arrows in the same hand as the bow, and to knock one as you approach the next target.

One big difference between real life mounted and theoretical dragonback archery, the wings are not in the way half the time which only gives you a short window to draw and shoot.
With a crossbow on the other hand you can perform the draw part whenever you want.
Thats why crossbows were often preferable to bows when attacking a castle. You can draw them behind a shield and wait for the enemy archer to step out from his cover to shoot him. With a bow both archers would draw and shoot at the same time.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

One big difference between real life mounted and theoretical dragonback archery, the wings are not in the way half the time which only gives you a short window to draw and shoot.
With a crossbow on the other hand you can perform the draw part whenever you want.
Thats why crossbows were often preferable to bows when attacking a castle. You can draw them behind a shield and wait for the enemy archer to step out from his cover to shoot him. With a bow both archers would draw and shoot at the same time.

You’re underestimating both how long you can have an arrow knocked waiting for your shot, and how quickly trained archers can draw and shoot.

 

[Ixal]

You’re underestimating both how long you can have an arrow knocked waiting for your shot, and how quickly trained archers can draw and shoot.

What pull strength?
Dragons are mythologically rather heavily armored and when shooting at human targets you need to do that from quite some distance because of wingspan.
Thus you need a heavy bow with 100+ lb draw strength and no trained archer will hold an arrow with that bow because or risk of injury and even when you do not care about that it tires you out quickly.
Drawing such a bow in full (often when you want to shoot fast you do not do the full draw, but that doesn't help against armor) also takes longer than those low strength bows you see in videos about rapid firing.

But I think that is enough about the details of archery for this thread.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What pull strength?
Dragons are mythologically rather heavily armored and when shooting at human targets you need to do that from quite some distance because of wingspan.
Thus you need a heavy bow with 100+ lb draw strength and no trained archer will hold an arrow with that bow because or risk of injury and even when you do not care about that it tires you out quickly.
Drawing such a bow in full (often when you want to shoot fast you do not do the full draw, but that doesn't help against armor) also takes longer than those low strength bows you see in videos about rapid firing.

But I think that is enough about the details of archery for this thread.

Lol sure just ignore that knocking an arrow and holding it ready isn’t the same thing as holding a full draw. Why worry about engaging with what I said rather than random stuff I didn’t say?

 

[Ixal]

Lol sure just ignore that knocking an arrow and holding it ready isn’t the same thing as holding a full draw. Why worry about engaging with what I said rather than random stuff I didn’t say?

Because holding your arrow is not the only thing that takes time when you draw a bow. When I made my argument I didn't even think about reaching for the arrow from a quiver.