Pathfinder 2E Paizo drops use of the word phylactery

[J.Quondam]

Then why is so much design space given over to combat and combat abilities?

Because that's the easiest aspect of the game to quantify using a set of rules derived from wargaming roots?

I sincerely doubt that most people play the game -- or have ever played the game-- for the specific purpose of "killing others." If that were the case, there'd be no interest in, for example, mechanics to flesh out "Exploration Pillar," or questions about handling romance in the game, and so forth.

People play D&D for the same reason they play other RPGs: to engage in some higher-order story involving characters in an imaginary world, of which "killing others" could be major component, but probably is not "the central conceit."

 

[Green Onceler]

People play D&D for the same reason they play other RPGs: to engage in some higher-order story involving characters in an imaginary world, of which "killing others" could be major component, but probably is not "the central conceit."

Well, perhaps I should have phrased it as "a central conceit" then. Apologies for careless use of the definite article.

My point stands, though, that we seem oddly specific in which aspects of the game we deem inappropriate.

 

[J.Quondam]

Well, perhaps I should have phrased it as "a central conceit" then. Apologies for careless use of the definite article.

My point stands, though, that we seem oddly specific in which aspects of the game we deem inappropriate.

I should apologize, too! I read too much into that one word in your post.

Still, I'll stick with my point, as well. Since so many different people play with so many different motives & perspectives, I think it's fair to expect that some issues will emerge as problematic, even if any one of those specific things might seem surprising to us individually.

 

[Green Onceler]

To be clear, I'm not upset by Paizo changing language in their game as they deem appropriate. I just find it unusual which aspects of the game require application of real world contemporary social mores and which are exempt from such expectation.

 

[billd91]

To be clear, I'm not upset by Paizo changing language in their game as they deem appropriate. I just find it unusual which aspects of the game require application of real world contemporary social mores and which are exempt from such expectation.

That is a function of contemporary zeitgeist and politics.

 

[MGibster]

The assumption that "the central conceit is killing others" is not even remotely true as a generalization for all gamers and their games. I doubt that was even a fair generalization back in the 1970s and 1980s

We're talking about Pathfinder which derived from D&D which itself is derivative of table top miniatures war gaming. At it's core, D&D is a game that revolves around killing things and the rules reflect this.

 

[J.Quondam]

We're talking about Pathfinder which derived from D&D which itself is derivative of table top miniatures war gaming. At it's core, D&D is a game that revolves around killing things and the rules reflect this.

No. The rules might revolve around "killing things" by virtue of comprising a large chunk of the pages. But the game isn't "about" killing things. The game is about whatever the gamers decide it's about. Not every one plays like John Wick.
Now, I know full well you understand my point, as I understand yours. So I'm not going to get sucked into a dumb tit-for-tat on an argument that's already been had countless times in the last 50 years.
Cheers!

 

[ReshiIRE]

Consider as well that oftne the targets of the "killing" are not groups of sentient creatures but often undead lead by a horrendous lich, or exploring wilderness where predators attack and people have to fight in self defense.

It would make sense, particularly in this case, to take care of the language used.

Humanity, violence and stories have a complex relationship. It's not the best way to make one's point by implying that engaging in fantastical violence, something we know is fictional and things we would not engage in IRL, is similar to potential issues around bigotry or exclusion, which people much more readily engage in, and often justify based on media they engage in.

 

[Staffan]

Was there a neutral-aligned lich (a druid, maybe?) in Red Hand of Doom? Even if the character was Neutral Evil, its roll in the adventure was as a potential ally, I think.

Not quite.

Spoiler: Spoilers for Red Hand of Doom

There is a druid lich in the adventure (3e lowered the bar quite a bit for liches, allowing any caster to be one and lowering the required level to 11) who goes by the moniker The Ghostlord. Well, technically an ex-druid but they have some weird prestige class for ex-druids that turns them into a necromancer of sorts instead. The lich is an unwilling ally to the main villain, providing him with undead troops, because the villain has captured the Ghostlord's phylactery. The PCs have a chance to recover it, and if they return the phylactery to the Ghostlord he will withdraw his support and return to his solitary existence. But he won't become an ally, just return to neutrality.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Humanity, violence and stories have a complex relationship. It's not the best way to make one's point by implying that engaging in fantastical violence, something we know is fictional and things we would not engage in IRL, is similar to potential issues around bigotry or exclusion, which people much more readily engage in, and often justify based on media they engage in.

Would'nt we? If Squid Game is accused of causing widespread violence in schools and the costumes banned for Halloween in some of them, there is little reason to think tabletop RPGs aren't guilty as well, just being much more niche than a Netflix show -- where explicitely bad guys do the violence, while in RPGs it's often the PCs who do it.

You make a better point with regard to the living-impaired magic-user leading groups of non-sentient undead, but unfortunately many campaigns promote at best vigilantism (it's not because the police is corrupt that you hunt down policemen...) and at worst just killing people because it's more convenient that holding them in jail. I read here that Witchlight Festival was a departure from that conceit, but I haven't read it yet.