RPG Theory- The Limits of My Language are the Limits of My World

[FrogReaver]

Heck, I'd be willing to make arguments why 5e (which, to keep clear, I'm not a fan of) is superior to editions prior to 3e. On the other hand, some of the arguments I'd make would add up to "ways its not like the traditional view of D&D" primarily in character customization, so some people would likely consider it damning with faint praise.



This is essentially the argument I've made. D&D is an abnormal game in a lot of non-system related ways compared to the rest of the market. Whether that's the key to its overall popularity or not isn't, and likely can't, be clear, but its also a little much to act like it can't be a significant factor.

It’s this notion of ‘superior’ that’s strange to me. I don’t tend to think of trrpgs as superior and inferior.

popularity isn’t superiority even though there’s some important things we can take away for examining why something is popular.

 

[Campbell]

So I think very few people are going to have an issue with the notion that 5e's design has a meaningful impact on its popularity. I think almost all the pushback comes from the idea that a more popular game is necessarily a better game. 5e is a good game. It's a popular game. It's also not a better game then other games that are less popular.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Right. Popularity can be because d) all of the above. Your example is an excellent way of pointing that out. And possibly also a good springboard for the notion that 4e and 5e still are very similar in alot of ways (very different in others). Thise similarities and differences could make a good case study for which kinds of mechanics are more popular.

Note: It was the notion that the game itself wasn’t part of the reason for its popularity I was pushing back on. Seems we agree there.

That'd require a particular tunnel-vision approach to claim it. The issue is that what we can't do is establish in any verifiable way how much of that popularity is system based; given that, its entirely possible that if you pulled out all the other factors, D&D wouldn't be any more popular than a number of other game systems.

But we don't know. We probably can't know.

 

[FrogReaver]

So I think very few people are going to have an issue with the notion that 5e's design has a meaningful impact on its popularity. I think almost all the pushback comes from the idea that a more popular game is necessarily a better game. 5e is a good game. It's a popular game. It's also not a better game then other games that are less popular.

I agree. I don’t think anyone is really saying that though…?

 

[Thomas Shey]

It’s this notion of ‘superior’ that’s strange to me. I don’t tend to think of trrpgs as superior and inferior.

I can't follow you there. I absolutely think some RPGs as superior to others.

But the important element is that I think that from my perspective. I don't think that concept means anything without establishing there's a perspective one is viewing that from; in a broad generalization, I think the best one could (theoretically) say is that a given game seems to do nothing others don't do better from, well, pretty much any perspective. But those are few and far between.

 

[Thomas Shey]

So I think very few people are going to have an issue with the notion that 5e's design has a meaningful impact on its popularity. I think almost all the pushback comes from the idea that a more popular game is necessarily a better game. 5e is a good game. It's a popular game. It's also not a better game then other games that are less popular.

In theory, in a broad sense, you could argue that a game that is more popular entirely from its design would be a better game in any general sense you could use.

But, of course, almost no game runs entirely from its design--other factors are virtually always in play--so popularity by itself tells you nothing beyond that something is more popular.

 

[FrogReaver]

That'd require a particular tunnel-vision approach to claim it. The issue is that what we can't do is establish in any verifiable way how much of that popularity is system based; given that, its entirely possible that if you pulled out all the other factors, D&D wouldn't be any more popular than a number of other game systems.

But we don't know. We probably can't know.

Comparing just between 4e and 5e controls for most of the non-system related advantages of d&d. The remaining popularity difference would presumably be driven by system differences - unless there’s some other highly plausible explanation?

 

[Campbell]

Comparing just between 4e and 5e controls for most of the non-system related advantages of d&d. The remaining popularity difference would presumably be driven by system differences - unless there’s some other highly plausible explanation?

I mean it does not account for the colossal boneheaded decision making of Wizards' business unit back in 2008.

 

[FrogReaver]

I mean it does not account for the colossal boneheaded decision making of Wizards' business unit back in 2008.

I have no idea what this refers to, but I have no doubt that it is true.

 

[FrogReaver]

I can't follow you there. I absolutely think some RPGs as superior to others.

But the important element is that I think that from my perspective. I don't think that concept means anything without establishing there's a perspective one is viewing that from; in a broad generalization, I think the best one could (theoretically) say is that a given game seems to do nothing others don't do better from, well, pretty much any perspective. But those are few and far between.

On what do you base their superiority?