Level Up (A5E) So much seems wrong with Press The Attack and Fall Back

[VanguardHero]

Pretty confident you're going to find Counterspell at least is very deliberately different (along with the other 'OP' spells that have been nerfed a bit, eg. fireball, tiny hut and animate objects).

Yeah those are very much working as intended, fixing broken stuff is kind of a selling point after all. Hell, some of it I wish they'd been a bit heavier handed with. Wish Counterspell required a spell on hand of the same school, for example. Same exact spell in 3.5 was a PITA, but I loved the idea of it being essentially you casting the same spell but inverted to cancel theirs out. "Spell that stops spells" is a lot more flat in flavor and dominating at the table.

I love PtA/FB conceptually. I love that it still benefits Berserkers the most, since letting the Berserker with expanded Crit Range and Crit Effects roll with advantage is a risky proposition.

 

[Satirical Bard]

It could have been a truly compatible "addition" to the rules, not an alternate rule set altogether, easily.

I mean they literally sold it as the latter. They were pretty clear on that front IMHO. Just because many of us (myself included) bought it as a glorified set of house rules to integrate in a modular fashion into our existing o5e campaigns, doesn't mean that's what they said it's for when they marketed the product. What they said is that it's "fully compatible". And it is, as far as I can see.

Fixed versions of a handful of spells routinely accepted as OP/broken is just that - fixing something. Ditto with Sharpshooter, which everyone agreed was OP.

So with the greatest respect, I think you're over-egging the 'incompatibility' a bit here. At the very least, I would encourage you to be slightly less declarative about your subjective opinion based on what I gather is zero actual playtesting.

 

[Rant]

I mean they literally sold it as the latter. They were pretty clear on that front IMHO. Just because many of us (myself included) bought it as a glorified set of house rules to integrate in a modular fashion into our existing o5e campaigns, doesn't mean that's what they said it's for when they marketed the product. What they said is that it's "fully compatible". And it is, as far as I can see.

Fixed versions of a handful of spells routinely accepted as OP/broken is just that - fixing something. Ditto with Sharpshooter, which everyone agreed was OP.

So with the greatest respect, I think you're over-egging the 'incompatibility' a bit here. At the very least, I would encourage you to be slightly less declarative about your subjective opinion based on what I gather is zero actual playtesting.

Sharpshooter seems an odd example to call out, since it's one feat that's been made better than it's O5E version. Did you mean a different feat for your example?

The issue isn't "false advertising" per se, more the needlessness of it. Core rule changes weren't "needed" to remove dead levels or expand social and exploration pillars of add martial maneuvers. It could have been a much more useable product if it was compatible with the original rules and added on to them. As a "replacement," that's a much more niche usage.

 

[Satirical Bard]

That may be true, but that ship sailed 2 years ago with this particular product.

DungeonCoach just did a detailed homebrew book on kickstarter, if you'd rather that sort of thing.

 

[Satirical Bard]

Sharpshooter seems an odd example to call out, since it's one feat that's been made better than it's O5E version. Did you mean a different feat for your example?

Sharpshooter (now Deadeye) is level-locked to 8th+ level, and now only gives +20' to short range, rather than turning long range into short range. So a longbow now has a short range of 170 feet, not 400 feet. A shortbow becomes 100 feet, not 320 feet.

The 'called shot' is now -PB/+PBx2 rather than -5/+10 as well, which I imagine most people would consider a nerf.

 

[Morrus]

Press The Attack and Fall Back is an example of something likely better off removed altogether from the final version, otherwise it's something that would need to be house-ruled out,

That’s not going to happen.

and hopefully some of the other issues can be addressed in the next few weeks as well. Some of the feats need to be fixed, since they are weaker than the base 5e versions, some spells like Counterspell and magic items like the Bag of Holding as well, but if there's still time, I feel better knowing these things might still get corrected to make the game more compatible.

Compatible does not mean identical. Every one or those things is compatible with 5E.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Ah, I see. Yes, having the PDFs available in a "beta state" before the print run does make sense, for catching errors and whatnot. I did not follow the Pathfinder 2e errata, but I recall the transition from playtest to final with original Pathfinder, 4e and 5e D&D. If it's still early enough for changes to be made for Level Up, I'm hopeful more of these rough edges will get smoothed out.

Press The Attack and Fall Back is an example of something likely better off removed altogether from the final version, otherwise it's something that would need to be house-ruled out, and hopefully some of the other issues can be addressed in the next few weeks as well. Some of the feats need to be fixed, since they are weaker than the base 5e versions, some spells like Counterspell and magic items like the Bag of Holding as well, but if there's still time, I feel better knowing these things might still get corrected to make the game more compatible.

Just want to point out that just because you think something needs to be fixed doesn’t mean it actually needs to be fixed.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Sharpshooter seems an odd example to call out, since it's one feat that's been made better than it's O5E version. Did you mean a different feat for your example?

The issue isn't "false advertising" per se, more the needlessness of it. Core rule changes weren't "needed" to remove dead levels or expand social and exploration pillars of add martial maneuvers. It could have been a much more useable product if it was compatible with the original rules and added on to them. As a "replacement," that's a much more niche usage.

What may seem needless to you feels essential to others. I get that this product is not what you want or thought it was, but it is what others wanted and need. I certainly joe they don’t change it to make it more like what you want. That would be a real shame.

 

[Morrus]

(Incidentally in our games PTA and FB make for some delightfully dynamic and mobile combats — we’re enjoying that aspect immensely! The other week somebody was being pushed back towards a cliff edge, with the attacker fully intending a Shove action when they got there. It was very cinematic!)

 

[lichmaster]

(Incidentally in our games PTA and FB make for some delightfully dynamic and mobile combats — we’re enjoying that aspect immensely! The other week somebody was being pushed back towards a cliff edge, with the attacker fully intending a Shove action when they got there. It was very cinematic!)

THIS!
I'm already seeing a necromancer commanding a large number of zombies to use PTA on a scattered group, so that they can push each character closer to each other and finally enable the master to cast a nasty AOE spell