Your opinion on basing fantasy countries on real world ones

[MGibster]

Just to offer a counter opinion here, the problem with incorporating entire cultures into a fantasy setting is that most of the time, when you do this, it makes zero sense. The boards here are rife with examples, recently one talking about how wheat farming would be problematic in a D&D setting. On and on.

I don't think anybody really incorporates entire cultures into a fantasy setting. They take a lot of the surface trappings and place them in a fantasy setting taking or leaving what they need. And while people like us might be interested in wheat farming in a D&D setting, I seriously doubt most people playing D&D care that much.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just to offer a counter opinion here, the problem with incorporating entire cultures into a fantasy setting is that most of the time, when you do this, it makes zero sense. The boards here are rife with examples, recently one talking about how wheat farming would be problematic in a D&D setting. On and on.

Cultures are a product of their history. When you radically change the context of those cultures - such as adding magic and monsters - then what should be produced won't actually look very much like real world cultures.

Naomi Novik's Tremeraire series is an excellent example of this. It starts out with late Napoleonic history with dragons and then veers totally away from history. Africa is a major power because they've spent centuries nurturing their dragons and have a freaking huge army of dragons that dwarfs anything in Europe. Eastern countries like China likewise are not even remotely colonizable by Europeans. It's a pretty decent shot at it.

But, IMO, if you're going to make a D&D world, it needs to start with at least one eye on the magic system and how that impacts culture and one eye on the Monster Manual as well. The whole "fantasy Ren-Faire Europe" trope that you generally get in D&D doesn't survive even a cursory examination. Every single aspect of culture would be affected by the twin pillars of the magic system and the Monster Manual.

Another one is Kurt R.A. Giambastiani’s Cloudfall novels. Imagine a world in which a young, expansionist America encounters plains Indians with velociraptor steeds…

 

[Hussar]

I don't think anybody really incorporates entire cultures into a fantasy setting. They take a lot of the surface trappings and place them in a fantasy setting taking or leaving what they need. And while people like us might be interested in wheat farming in a D&D setting, I seriously doubt most people playing D&D care that much.

See, but here's the thing. It infects virtually every aspect of the game. And, because fantasy is an extremely conservative fandom, tropes are very, very difficult to criticize or examine. Elves are isolationist and snooty. Why? Because that's how Tolkien wrote them, that that's how they are. Halflings as stand ins for idealized English farmers. So on and so forth. And because so much of this is never analyzed, it gets passed on again and again. And, once you start overlaying those surface trappings of a cultures, without actually taking the time to examine the roots of those trappings, we wind up where we are now - with a miss mash of stuff that's part fantastic ideas and part racist garbage.

 

[MGibster]

See, but here's the thing. It infects virtually every aspect of the game. And, because fantasy is an extremely conservative fandom, tropes are very, very difficult to criticize or examine. Elves are isolationist and snooty. Why? Because that's how Tolkien wrote them, that that's how they are. Halflings as stand ins for idealized English farmers. So on and so forth. And because so much of this is never analyzed, it gets passed on again and again. And, once you start overlaying those surface trappings of a cultures, without actually taking the time to examine the roots of those trappings, we wind up where we are now - with a miss mash of stuff that's part fantastic ideas and part racist garbage.

Infects is a somewhat inflammatory word. Which makes sense since infections often cause inflammation. I agree that fantasy gaming is somewhat conservative but I'll go one further. It's highly derivative. We've been using Tolkien style races for so long because it's familiar and it allows people to jump into the game quickly. So the best solution is to simply stop using them. Because if you use them, even if you play against type, you're still relying on those tired old tropes.

 

[Ancalagon]

In fact I have. It's been very useful!

very happy to hear it, I'm a huge fan of it

 

[Jmarso]

Done properly, and with the right sort of campaign and BBEG, it could be awesome.

Done improperly, it'll probably fall very flat.

 

[Hussar]

Infects is a somewhat inflammatory word. Which makes sense since infections often cause inflammation. I agree that fantasy gaming is somewhat conservative but I'll go one further. It's highly derivative. We've been using Tolkien style races for so long because it's familiar and it allows people to jump into the game quickly. So the best solution is to simply stop using them. Because if you use them, even if you play against type, you're still relying on those tired old tropes.

I’d agree with all this.

It’s certainly not something that’s easily fixed. And the game books themselves do us no favours since they are all starting from that derivative starting point. Which is certainly familiar. But also carries the baggage as well.

So what is the solution? I really don’t know. I do with that DnD had something like the old Traveller world building system. Maybe a game for the whole group to play together to build a new campaign world.

 

[aramis erak]

Politics aside, I do think an unintended side effect is going to be an increase in European-derived settings as people try to avoid culturally appropriating from areas they don't have any connection to.

We'll see in 10 years...

I doubt the chilling effect will take even that long.

 

[Hussar]

I doubt the chilling effect will take even that long.

How could we possibly have more European derived settings than we do now? Chilling effect on what? On the fact that virtually every single D&D setting out there is Euro-centric?

Let's play a game. You name a non-Euro-centric D&D setting, and I'll name three that are Euro-centric. We'll see who runs out first.

 

[aramis erak]

How could we possibly have more European derived settings than we do now? Chilling effect on what? On the fact that virtually every single D&D setting out there is Euro-centric?

Let's play a game. You name a non-Euro-centric D&D setting, and I'll name three that are Euro-centric. We'll see who runs out first.

A suitable and accurate response for my beliefs would violate the politics rule. And I suspect you know that, and are trolling me.