D&D 5E Using social skills on other PCs

[Bill Zebub]

I was asking more on a rules-based level - would NPC K get a roll to see through NPC Z's deception, or does NPC K have to prompt a PC to do something in order to invoke a roll? (put another way, can the DM call for a roll against herself?)

Again, though, how does this work in the rules? Does the player get to roll something to see how effective her disguise is, or does the DM get to invoke a roll to see through the disguise?

What a bizarre question. Characters…NPC or otherwise…don’t “get rolls”. Humans sometimes roll dice to see what their characters are able to do.

 

[Maxperson]

I never said that Being easily led to believing anything the caster says means "will do things out of character for the target."

This is literally you in the post I responded to.

"When combined with the actual charmed condition (advantage on ability checks to interact socially with the charmed creature), it means that not only is the target forced to see the caster as a friendly person, they will be easily led into believing anything the target says." I'm not psychic. I can't know that anything the caster says doesn't mean anything the caster says.

If Maria the caster casts charm person on Bob the merchant, Bob will have no immediate reason to be suspicious of Maria--the spell ensures that Bob views Maria as a decent enough person. If Maria tells Bob to give her something for free, then unless Bob is the type of merchant who normally gives or lends out stuff for free in the first place.

If Maria swears up and down that she'll give it back, she just needs it for a moment, and then makes a good Deception roll (made with advantage!), then there's a pretty good chance that Bob will believe her. By which I mean, he will believe that Maria is being honest here, that she intends to bring back the thing. This assumes that Bob doesn't know Maria or has reason to believe she's a liar (assuming she is lying here).

Maybe. If I were a merchant and someone I met a few times at a party(friendly acquaintance) asked me to borrow something for a bit, I'm going to say no. I don't know him well and there is no chance I'm going to trust someone I only met a few times at a party, especially if he's using salesman voice on me to try and get me to do it.

Depending on Bob's personality, he may give her the item (believing he'll soon get it back), offer it in exchange for collateral ("I'll hold on to your bags while you do whatever it is you need the thing for"), offer it at a decent discount (which may be more than 10%), or simply say no ("I wish I could help, but I can't afford to have that item lost or damaged. I'm sure you'd try your best to keep it intact, but things happen"). What Bob won't do is immediately say that Maria is a lying thief or something like that, because friendly acquaintances don't do that.

It's possible that he's a gullible merchant, but unlikely as those sorts go out of business quickly.

 

[billd91]

What a bizarre question. Characters…NPC or otherwise…don’t “get rolls”. Humans sometimes roll dice to see what their characters are able to do.

Really? Is that really how you want to play this?

 

[Bill Zebub]

Really? Is that really how you want to play this?

Sorta. It leads to the point that, in the case of NPCs, the human who might ask for a roll*, is the same person who grants permission. Which, to me, makes @Lanefan’s scenario a real head-scratcher.

*And, as @iserith would surely point out, if you are asking the DM if you can roll dice in 5e, you are already doing something wrong.

 

[billd91]

Sorta. It leads to the point that, in the case of NPCs, the human who might ask for a roll*, is the same person who grants permission. Which, to me, makes @Lanefan’s scenario a real head-scratcher.

Not if you pay attention to Lanefan enough. He tries to think of NPCs as individual as PCs and their players. If something’s sauce for the PCs, it’s sauce for the NPCs too.

*And, as @iserith would surely point out, if you are asking the DM if you can roll dice in 5e, you are already doing something wrong.

Maybe he would, but you don’t have to post as pedantically as he does either. And as the DM, you can still adjudicate the same way whether they ask for a roll or declare the action. You don’t have to pen the player into the roll if you‘d rather nudge them into them telling you how they act or just tell them whether they need to roll or not.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Not if you pay attention to Lanefan enough. He tries to think of NPCs as individual as PCs and their players. If something’s sauce for the PCs, it’s sauce for the NPCs too.

I do pay attention, so I'm aware of that. Their preference is for symmetric games where NPCs and PCs follow the same rules, for both character creation and play, so they try to impose that preference on 5e. But 5e very explicitly doesn't have that symmetry.

Maybe he would, but you don’t have to post as pedantically as he does either.

That's probably true. But more patient attempts have apparently gone nowhere. Still, you're right.

And as the DM, you can still adjudicate the same way whether they ask for a roll or declare the action. You don’t have to pen the player into the roll if you‘d rather nudge them into them telling you how they act or just tell them whether they need to roll or not.

Yes, the DM can. They can make up whatever rules they want to for deciding what their NPCs do, and how successful they are. But that's just it: they're making it up. So I don't understand what role their made-up rules play in a discussion about D&D rules.

 

[iserith]

Maybe he would, but you don’t have to post as pedantically as he does either.

To be fair, I only do that to annoy you specifically. Anyone else I annoy with it is just a bonus.

 

[Charlaquin]

I do pay attention, so I'm aware of that. Their preference is for symmetric games where NPCs and PCs follow the same rules, for both character creation and play, so they try to impose that preference on 5e. But 5e very explicitly doesn't have that symmetry.

I don’t actually think they play 5e.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I don’t actually think they play 5e.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure they also know enough about how 5e works to know that it's not symmetric.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Since the DM, in the former situation, can still say “no need to roll, you got it” or set the DC to a trivial value, the difference isn’t substantial. At all.

yeah last year I went round and round with some of these same posters on wording. Some think everything has to be a declaired action to the point that when I asked about knowledge checks they said they would prompt there PCs to say something like "I think hard to remember the information" becuse asking if they know is wrong and calling for a "can I use arcana to know this" is wrong... it is a weird word policing thing and why I have only jumped in like every 20ish pages here...

this arguement is going nowhere... although to be honest I don't see a mod yet so it is going well.