D&D 5E 50th Anniversary and beyond

[Charlaquin]

Fair enough (that is my favorite Grandpa quote, and I feel his pain). But you have to admit 5 years after publishing is a pretty quick shift from a social perspective, particularly with how vehement some people are about it.

Welcome to the Information Age.

 

[Charlaquin]

yeah, everything is moving fast today (or maybe I am slowing in my old age).

It’s probably a bit of both, but culture unquestionably changes faster now than it ever has before.

 

[teitan]

It’s probably a bit of both, but culture unquestionably changes faster now than it ever has before.

I don’t think this is culture. I think this is bullying at this point kind of like the film version of 21 Jump Street but magnified.

 

[Azzy]

I’m probably tread on thin ice but I think that if inclusivity becomes too much of a focus it can seem forced or disproportionate and instead of promoting inclusivity it can actually provoke a negative reaction.

Things seem forced when people (or corporation, in this case) try to actively try something new and better. That's because it's something they aren't used too. As time rolls on, it'll come more naturally to them and won't seem like overcompensation. As for disproportionate... There are three things going on that contribute to this. First, as before, they're trying to find their footing on how to do this properly. Second, it needs to be disproportionate to some extent—otherwise some peoples would get no or next to no representation at all and that's not cool. Third, it's easy for something to feel disproportionate when the thing you're used to has been traditionally disproportionate in the other direction. Don't expect the changes to be perfect overnight—it'll take time and effort to get it right. But at least things are on the right track.

 

[Bolares]

I’m probably tread on thin ice but I think that if inclusivity becomes too much of a focus it can seem forced or disproportionate and instead of promoting inclusivity it can actually provoke a negative reaction. The game should be something everyone feels comfortable playing without feeling excluded but I think something is going very wrong when the rules are being distorted unnecessarily in an attempt to ensure that even the most creative person cannot read some sort of offence into the text.
Just to be completely clear, I believe that inclusivity is a good thing but it is a delicate balance and can be mismanaged. I enjoy the Dragon Talk podcast but it went for a very long period (possibly 20 episode) where every single guest was either black and talked about their colour or was non-heterosexual and talked about that. I have absolutely no issues with people from either of these groups and enjoyed their interviews as much as any other guest but it was an extremely disproportionate representation of the majority of the fan base. The guests race or sexuality seemed to be the main reason they were chosen for the show. They have a random character generator segment where probably only a quarter of the characters gender is male or female. The host for some reason decided to refer to Raistlin from Dragonlance as “they” on several occasion when the character is clearly defined as male. It all just seemed so false and I couldn’t help but think “oh no, not this again”. To me, this forced inclusivity is off putting and I don’t want to feel that way about something that should be a positive thing.

yikes

 

[HammerMan]

I don’t think this is culture. I think this is bullying at this point kind of like the film version of 21 Jump Street but magnified.

interesting, who do you think is bullying who?

 

[HammerMan]

Things seem forced when people (or corporation, in this case) try to actively try something new and better. That's because it's something they aren't used too. As time rolls on, it'll come more naturally to them and won't seem like overcompensation. As for disproportionate... There are three things going on that contribute to this. First, as before, they're trying to find their footing on how to do this properly. Second, it needs to be disproportionate to some extent—otherwise some peoples would get no or next to no representation at all and that's not cool. Third, it's easy for something to feel disproportionate when the thing you're used to has been traditionally disproportionate in the other direction. Don't expect the changes to be perfect overnight—it'll take time and effort to get it right. But at least things are on the right track.

tokenism is a thing, and pandering and virtue singling is a thing... the fact that things get labeled one or both when they are not is a bit of a dog whistle... but then you are policing thoughts too. "Wait is including 1 woman on every superhero team tokenism or is in inclusion?" followed by
"Is it sexest to dislike 1 woman lead superhero movie, if you also support two others, or is it more nuanced?"

I mean does pointing out tokenism mean you don't want inclusion?

 

[Bolares]

I mean does pointing out tokenism mean you don't want inclusion?

I think it all depends on the context and intent. Some people will use tokenism as a puppet argument to keep complaining about inclusion, while others will argue in good faith. As with most things generalizing is not a great idea.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think the question is: does something get a pass on quality if its inclusive? I think most people would say no, but it is difficult sometimes to express a negative opinion of a creative work if that work strongly features inclusive content. It can be hard to sort out your own thoughts and feelings in that regard, let alone what other people think of you. I second-guess myself on that stuff all the time.

 

[Bolares]

I think the question is: does something get a pass on quality if its inclusive? I think most people would say no, but it is difficult sometimes to express a negative opinion of a creative work if that work strongly features inclusive content. It can be hard to sort out your own thoughts and feelings in that regard, let alone what other people think of you. I second-guess myself on that stuff all the time.

Being inclusive and being a good piece of media/game content are not sinonimous. Being inclusive is important, being good is also important. But you have good media that is inclusive (basically all of ms marvel and miles morales) and bad media that is inclusive. Being inclusive is the bar minimum, as I'm not really interested anymore in consuming non inclusive products, but that doesn't mean that every inclusive product will be automatically good. YMMV and all that.