D&D 5E Yes to factionalism. No to racism.

[Lyxen]

It was always bland, restrictive, and sometimes nonsensical.

Sometimes nonsensical, but no, certainly less bland. I'm not sure about the "restrictive". Although I will admit that it's good that WotC adresses the implicit "always" in the alignment of some races, I would like to point out that 3e already did it quite well at the time and honestly, even in BECMI or AD&D we had absolutely no problem ignoring the alignment tag that came with monster races.

Nothing about the D&D elf makes it the most ultimately suited race for woodland fighting. And they barely have special woodland powers nor features. And they don't have alien mindsets. So end up with a race restricted to a climate to make up for bad rules or saving book page space.

And that is exactly what I'm protesting against. At least the racial stats made some sort of sense, as well as the different types of vision in previous editions, it gave at least an edge.

As for the mindset, this is much more about roleplaying, and there have been intersting strong mindsets, although some were quite tolkienish, there were already fairly different takes on them even in previous editions, see the Elfes of Alfheim or those of Spelljammer.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I've said it before here, but Eberron does this very well for the most part of two decades now. Race is way less important than nation for cultural identity in that setting, and it is one of the settings with the least ocurrances of "humans in funny hats". It's okay for you to not like factionalism, just don't state it as a fact that it can't be done well.

It's done well, in that it replaces racist mindset with nationalist mindset, replacing an 19th century mindset with another one. "All orcs are evil killers" and "All Karnathi are evil necromancers" is the same kind of generalization, and the latter is exactly what your random Thrane passer-by will think (despite Karrnathi necromancy being not at all what a century of war propaganda would have presented it). The only thing that make it easier is the millenia of being part of the same country before, leading to what is still perceived as a civil war -- despite lasting longer than generations of humans.

 

[Lyxen]

This is exactly what the OP is asking for. So what, in the thread are you oposing to?

I'm opposing the title, for one, but also the fact that the races are actually made so bland as to actually completely disappear from the equation, again see the title.

Gnomes have a big faction with it's own culture (house sivis), a nation with a separate culture (Zilargo) and can be found in more mixed cultures like the five nations. Elves have a drangormarked faction, two distinctive nations, three distinctive drow cultures and also can be found in the five nations well integrated. Those are perfect examples of what we are talking about here. Being an elf is the least thing that describes your culture in Eberron. Where that elf is from is waaay more important. Culture/nation/faction first, race second is the way eberron has ever gone.

The fact that a few members of any race can be found almost anywhere is not new to Eberron, it was already strong in Mystara or Greyhawk. And I'm counting the dragonmarked houses as "a few" here, as well as pointing out that some of the dragonmarked houses are decidedly racially orientated, so race matters very much for that. My point about Eberron is that there are strong racial nations where race matters, which is again not that different from for example Greyhawk, look for example at Celene (Grey and Wood elves), The Duchy of Ulek (Wood and High elves), and Lendore (Aquatic and High Elves).

Once more, nothing new under the sun except that hatred of everything race related that permeates all these discussions...

 

[Bolares]

It's done well, in that it replaces racist mindset with nationalist mindset, replacing an 19th century mindset with another one. "All orcs are evil killers" and "All Karnathi are evil necromancers" is the same kind of generalization, and the latter is exactly what your random Thrane passer-by will think (despite Karrnathi necromancy being not at all what a century of war propaganda would have presented it). The only thing that make it easier is the millenia of being part of the same country before, leading to what is still perceived as a civil war -- despite lasting longer than generations of humans.

Having culture and nations be the first focus also does not exclude those cultures to have racist views. There was a whole purge of shifters done by Thranes that believed they were werewolves is the settings past. The main point is that they were wrong and the nation today has to live with the consequences of the bigotry of the past.

 

[Bolares]

I'm opposing the title, for one, but also the fact that the races are actually made so bland as to actually completely disappear from the equation, again see the title.

Okay, I'm not interacting with you about this. We've already discussed the title and you chose to ignored it. So there is no point in countinuing to talk about it.

The fact that a few members of any race can be found almost anywhere is not new to Eberron,

I never said Eberron invented factionalism, that's absurd. I just said Eberron does it very well and in all instances of it's world building.

My point about Eberron is that there are strong racial nations where race matters, which is again not that different from for example Greyhawk, look for example at Celene (Grey and Wood elves), The Duchy of Ulek (Wood and High elves), and Lendore (Aquatic and High Elves).

The difference is that Eberron was created thinking culture first. There are nations that are almost, if not straight up, exclusionists, like Aerenal, the talenta plains and Riedra. But that exclusionism has a reason to happen. Aerenal isn't just "elf nation", there is a reason in lore for that culture to have only elves in it. Every nation has a built in reason for their diversity or lack of it. A setting being nation/culture/faction first doesn't necessarily mean race will not be important, or that there will be no exclusionary nations.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Sometimes nonsensical, but no, certainly less bland.

ROFL.

"Cornflakes are less bland than rice crispies!"

I'm opposing the title, for one

Nah mate, you're opposing your own misunderstanding of the title. Don Quixote away!

 

[Bolares]

Once more, nothing new under the sun except that hatred of everything race related that permeates all these discussions...

Can you PLEASE stop antagonizing us. We've already talked about this. You can disagree without trying to make us look bad. This is so disrespectful. You complain we don't respond to your arguments, but you keep doing stuff like this. please stop.

 

[Lyxen]

Having culture and nations be the first focus also does not exclude those cultures to have racist views.

Exactly, all the more if the nation/culture was base on race initially, and even more if the racial characteristics of the race reinforced the traits and made it possible for the nation/culture to be successful and dominate its location/ecosystem, etc.

This is why we need stronger fantasy racial characteristics, to reinforce these views, as stronger views create better drama and stories. Not weakening everything for inapplicable real world reasons.

 

[akr71]

Yeah I remember that from the last time you did this. Class is still not Culture.

Culture is about where you are from, your traditions. Its not your Job (Class) and it doesnt even need to be your prior training (Background).

I'm Canadian by Culture.

I'm not IT/Software Developer by Culture.
I'm IT Trained by Background.

And your Canadian Culture is probably vastly different from my own... unless you too are an Air Force brat raised mostly in Upper Canada who then moved to the Maritimes and married into an Acadian family.

 

[Bolares]

And your Canadian Culture is probably vastly different from my own... unless you too are an Air Force brat raised mostly in Upper Canada who then moved to the Maritimes and married into an Acadian family.

It'd be pretty funny if he did huh