The Proper Use of Nudity in FRPG Art

[MGibster]

But let us not pretend that, since it doesn't apply to you, that these discussions don't often include the idea that someone is "looking to be offended" or is "too easily offended" or the like.

Fair enough. I just didn't get the impression that this was the particular point you were making.

 

[MGibster]

Don't get me wrong, having a daughter has not turned me into a prude, but it has made me more cognizant of elements like consent and objectification in my blood'n'boobs fantasy preferences -- in art, in film/TV, and in RPGs.

You're a human being with an ever evolving perspective shaped by the events which have unfolded through the passage of time. And it's not about being a prude, it's about what's appropriate in a given context. I don't know if he really said it, but I've always like this quote attributed to Muhammad Ali:

“The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.”​

 

[CapnZapp]

Let me first get this out of the way:

Is this a thinly veiled attempt to justify most if not all games being cluelessly chauvinistic, misogynist or excluding? No. Do I want to be able to publish racist right-wing conspiracy supplements now? No.

That's another extremely frustrating aspect. You can't enjoy the simple things in life without getting treated as if you were the drek of the internet.

I'm making a completely different point.

It isn't just the art itself - it is how that art is a sign of lack of respect and failure to understand (or maybe failure to care) about the real issues.

The following is general commentary not directed at anyone in particular.

In other areas of life, you can have sensitive and inclusive books, movies and other expressions of art. And you also have expressions that offend or exclude. At the same time.

Sure people criticize what they don't like or what they feel is insensitive, as is their right. But rarely do anyone do what has been depressingly common in our hobby, which is to seriously suggest all games (of professional quality) should meet the same standards, trying to effectively push the outre or the wild out of the general discussion. Recently in this hobby entire communities expect you to discuss such "problematic" works* exclusively from a problematizing angle; chiefly or even only discuss their flaws, and generally never confess to liking things if those things have flaws in the areas of inclusion, equality or representation. Never should you focus on what you like.

*) The very notion of "problematic works" gives me unpleasant chills down my spine. It has never ended well. Let's hope this time, the frenzy just dies down with no worse effects.

Moreover, in general life you can be a celebrated artist (director, author, etc) even if you do the occasional (or frequent) work that offends or titillates without the general conversation trying to paint the creator personally as hateful, derogatory or narrow-minded. Not so on the discussion forums I frequent. It has become the standard assumption that if I can interpret your work as racist, you must be racist. Your motivations are irrelevant - I take the right to project my interpretation onto your desires and motivations.

Directors and actors and novelists and painters can remain celebrated when their characters and images act out offensive sequences and themes. But not in this hobby, not today.

As I said I find it heartbreaking and frustrating, and I can't wait for signs that more people realize this and a shift will finally occur to where my fellow roleplaying hobbyists start being basically accepting again, or at the very least starts to treat stuff they take offense to with tired ignorance rather than frenzied proselytizing.

I wish more people would see this for what it is - an overreaction. Wanting more games where you fit in and feel welcomed is perfectly fine. Wanting all games to be that way is existentially horrifying.

 

[CapnZapp]

I am not sure art can be discussed as it was once. Look at the Vienna national museum that opened an account on a porn platorm to protest the banning of the Venus of Willendorf

Sure it can. We just need to break the back of the social media oligopoly and the pervasiveness of conservative corporate America across the globe.

But that's another discussion...

That museum's curator or media strategist made me genuinely happy when I first read that story. A true ray of sunlight in the darkness.

 

[MGibster]

Sure people criticize what they don't like or what they feel is insensitive, as is their right. But rarely do anyone do what has been depressingly common in our hobby, which is to seriously suggest all games (of professional quality) should meet the same standards, trying to effectively push the outre or the wild out of the general discussion.

I'm more of a context matters type of person than I am a "this shouldn't exist at all" type of person. As a general rule, I'd rather not open a book and see warrior women with boob windows in their breastplates or wearing chainmail bikinis. However, such images would be perfectly acceptable that sought to parody old fantasy tropes.

 

[aramis erak]

I'm more of a context matters type of person than I am a "this shouldn't exist at all" type of person. As a general rule, I'd rather not open a book and see warrior women with boob windows in their breastplates or wearing chainmail bikinis.

Agreed.

However, such images would be perfectly acceptable that sought to parody old fantasy tropes.

there are people looking to be offended, and satire may be the ammo they need. There are also people who will miss that it's satire. Satire's always a risk.

I bought the Avalanche press items because the content is awesome. I did complain to AP at the time about the cover art. Whomever holds the rights should put new covers (with art that doesn't look like it's been drawn by out of work porn comic artists) and without the D20 STL logo... Noble Steeds and Noble Nights really just need the D20 logo removed; the cover art was perfect on them.
I, Mordred has been used for inspiration rather than as written, because I use Pendragon for Arthurian, but it's a conceptual module with a few bits of rules,

 

[MGibster]

there are people looking to be offended, and satire may be the ammo they need. There are also people who will miss that it's satire. Satire's always a risk.

As a general rule, I start from the position that those voicing objections are doing so based on a sincerely held belief. When I was browsing my local gaming store, I wasn't looking for something offensive but I came across several of those Avalanche Press books and I was offended. Doom of Odin was probably the worst of the bunch just because, well, who the hell squats like that when shooting arrows? Also, I don't really consider satire to be a defense. Starship Troopers and Showgirls are both crummy movies but their defenders like to tell me it's satire as if I didn't get it. Satire isn't a defense.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Don't be too quick in proclaiming that companies are "caring" about societal problems because they are removing pictures of women in skimpy attire. Caring, or not caring (any taking of a stand) would be doing something contrary to their best business interests to uphold values. Publishing naked women when the market is made of adolescent males and having these illustrations is helping sales, and removing them when market research shows that 40% of gamers are female and not having them is helping sales, demonstrate that you care about sales (and as a company, you should), nothing else.

 

[Blue Orange]

Don't be too quick in proclaiming that companies are "caring" about societal problems because they are removing pictures of women in skimpy attire. Caring, or not caring (any taking of a stand) would be doing something contrary to their best business interests to uphold values. Publishing naked women when the market is made of adolescent males and having these illustrations is helping sales, and removing them when market research shows that 40% of gamers are female and not having them is helping sales, demonstrate that you care about sales (and as a company, you should), nothing else.

It's a for-profit company, as you say. If being sexist helps their bottom line, they'll do that (and did). If being inclusive helps their bottom line, they'll do that (and arguably are beginning to).

Never attribute to morals that which can be adequately explained by avarice.

 

[Blue Orange]

You're a human being with an ever evolving perspective shaped by the events which have unfolded through the passage of time. And it's not about being a prude, it's about what's appropriate in a given context. I don't know if he really said it, but I've always like this quote attributed to Muhammad Ali:

“The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.”​

That's true. The irony is, I've actually gotten more nasty and unsympathetic with age.