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D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
yeah most level 20 fighters would fit in with 9th level wizards and 11th level warlock/sorcerers as heroes of the realms... andnever hit masters...
I agree for the most part. I do think 12+ level martials aren't on par with 12+ level casters because WotC kept them too mundane. If you think of the continuum of "mundane" - "heroic" - "super heroic", they kept in mostly mundane, while I would like to have seen heroic, and a lot of people here want to see super heroic.
 

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And yet martials get played just as much IME as casters. There was to be something appealing about them otherwise people wouldn't play them. My favorite classes (in order!) are Rogues, Fighters, and then Wizards.
90% of games don't go past level 10
(bold added)
What permanent? Shapechange has a duration of up to 1 hour--hardly "all day long" unless you are referring to something other than the spell?
I was referring to the True Polymorph spell which has the line "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled." And dispelling a 9th level spell isn't easy.
And I am not comparing the two, you are.
Yes I am - because the game is because levels are a thing. The level 20 fighter is pretty mundane and isn't really a master of anything.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Martials, on the other hand, don't rely on their intelligence.
that should be recognized as nonsense too. It was why Herakles diverting the river was an act of engineering.
If they have a "mountain breaker" ability, that's due to their muscle.
or is not raw strength but rather an extraordinary application of precision force part of an act of civil engineering and focus where you find the vulnerable fractures in the surface in mere moments that would have taken months to do followed by strength that also does exceed the ken of mortal men.

Additionally In the visage of hit points can that be an act of luck (spending hit points to perform which represents both depleting of luck and straining yourself). Hitpoints are also a combat resource such heroic exertions makes them available for other pillars.

How much you picture it as gifted genius extraordinary luck and how much is it literally just being superhumanly strong (or like hp themselves tough) has flavor differences

I suspect few are asking for martials to have constant ability to do the impossible since that rather than forgetting is really the issue.


They can't forget how to hit very hard.
Never ever since day one did it make sense that casters forgot how to do these horribly elaborate things. Fortunately that too can be reflavored as something more sane.
 

I never said Paladin.
No, I did. The paladin is a caster.
Which only lasts up to 10 minutes per casting, while the fighter can climb and jump all day long...
And how many times does the fighter actually need to climb in a day?
But the point is a fighter could build a wall. Sure it isn't as quick and "magical", but why does it have to be?
It doesn't have to be magical. It has to be fast. This is the problem with the Assassin abilities. In order for the fighter needs to either ask the rest of the party to do nothing or to sit out the best part of an entire adventure while they do something mundane. Neither of which is good for group cohesion.
Who was a demigod, akin to Hercules really. IMO that is the sort of stuff that belongs in Epic levels, not 1-20. But again, just my opinion.
IMO so does permanently turning yourself into a dragon, casting Wish, and most of the other actually good 9th level spells. Level 17-20 is the domain of epic abilities.
I agree for the most part. I do think 12+ level martials aren't on par with 12+ level casters because WotC kept them too mundane. If you think of the continuum of "mundane" - "heroic" - "super heroic", they kept in mostly mundane, while I would like to have seen heroic, and a lot of people here want to see super heroic.
5e officially came with tiers. As I quoted earlier:
  • Tier 1: Levels 1-4 - Local Heroes
  • Tier 2: Levels 5-10 - Heroes of the Realm
  • Tier 3: Levels 11-16 - Masters of the Realm
  • Tier 4: Levels 17-20 - Masters of the World
Tier 1 for martials should IMO be mundane. Tier 4 should IMO definitely be super heroic. Where heroic and super heroic start both on the power scale and for martials is an interesting question IMO.
 

But what good would cutting a mountain or building a wall do for a dungeon crawl?
You clearly don't dungeon crawl the way I do at high level. Building a wall - trap people in. Cutting a mountain = making your own doors. And cutting and smashing your way through a maze is a perfectly good way of getting through.
Sure, there's niche uses but a feature saying you can cut a mountain will still feel useless when you're traversing the underdark.
It's only useless in a flat, featureless plane. Which the Underdark isn't.
Wizards can prepare the "mountain breaker" spell for when they're climbing mountains, and replace it with the "Underdark Tunneler" spell for when they're traversing the underdark. And it makes sense because magic, in lore, is a sequence of techniques to manipulate the weave. These are technical abilities that can be remembered or forgotten based on intelligence.
In short wizards can do anything and fighters can do nothing.
Martials, on the other hand, don't rely on their intelligence.
This is starkly risible. Fighters need brains. It's not all about muscle, it's about knowing where to hit and knowing your foes. And about understanding the fight and outthinking your opponent at high speed. The flanderisation of fighters into big dumb brutes doesn't do the game any good.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
that should be recognized as nonsense too. It was why Herakles diverting the river was an act of engineering.
But that's not an ability exclusive to Heracles. Anyone can think of diverting a river. It took his muscle to perform that task, though. Same way a wizard doesn't have the spell "Divert River" but has the spell "Mold Earth." (Okay, they do have control water but that's besides the point).

The point is that the actual acts aren't something you can stop doing by simply forgetting. If Heracles leveled up, it'd make no sense why if he came upon a new river that needed diversion, he could no longer do it.

And yeah, it's kinda not easy to justify why casters can forget the Fireball spell even if they'd have casted it 500 times before. But if you try to really criticize it, it can be waved away with "Magic, duh."

And the hulk really isn't calculating the precise force needed to break a Boulder. Other feats, sure, but boulders are fragile enough on his scale that he doesn't need to perform calculations. They're like clumps of sand to him. It probably takes more intelligence to hold a boulder and not crush it.
 


Asisreo

Patron Badass
This is starkly risible. Fighters need brains. It's not all about muscle, it's about knowing where to hit and knowing your foes. And about understanding the fight and outthinking your opponent at high speed. The flanderisation of fighters into big dumb brutes doesn't do the game any good.
But this isn't true. Two fighters with the same ability score spread except one having -1 Int and the other having +5 int are equally the same in combat situations. And in their abilities that don't involve memory, logic, or thought.

There's no ability that scales off intelligence that gives a fighter better sword strikes. If you want to have a +5 int as a fighter, you can, but it does you no favors.
 


But this isn't true. Two fighters with the same ability score spread except one having -1 Int and the other having +5 int are equally the same in combat situations.
And this is a flaw in D&D.
There's no ability that scales off intelligence that gives a fighter better sword strikes. If you want to have a +5 int as a fighter, you can, but it does you no favors.
Once again this is a flaw in D&D. Pointing out that Int is a dump stat for 5e fighters due to the way the rules are written doesn't mean that Int should be a dump stat in D&D - or that it is a dump stat for top flight fighters either in the real world or mythology.
 

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