D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

[Vaalingrade]

What if we called them stabmages instead of fighters?

Could they be allowed to be awesome then?

 

[HammerMan]

But that's not an ability exclusive to Heracles. Anyone can think of diverting a river. It took his muscle to perform that task, though. Same way a wizard doesn't have the spell "Divert River" but has the spell "Mold Earth." (Okay, they do have control water but that's besides the point).

The point is that the actual acts aren't something you can stop doing by simply forgetting. If Heracles leveled up, it'd make no sense why if he came upon a new river that needed diversion, he could no longer do it.

but it would make sense in a story for a wizard druid or sorcerer to not be able to? Some stories say strain but out side of Jack Vance and D&D no one ever has a wizard forget there spell.. they can be too tired and too weakend... but no not being able to do today what you did 3 weeks ago is weird any class.

waved away with "Magic, duh."

right... so we wave it as "Heroic fantasy duh"

And the hulk really isn't calculating the precise force needed to break a Boulder. Other feats, sure, but boulders are fragile enough on his scale that he doesn't need to perform calculations. They're like clumps of sand to him. It probably takes more intelligence to hold a boulder and not crush it.

 

[HammerMan]

And this is a flaw in D&D.

Once again this is a flaw in D&D. Pointing out that Int is a dump stat for 5e fighters due to the way the rules are written doesn't mean that Int should be a dump stat in D&D - or that it is a dump stat for top flight fighters either in the real world or mythology.

Int in 5e is a dump stat for every non wizard/artificer

 

[DND_Reborn]

90% of games don't go past level 10

Sure, but a different issue. IME games that end by middle levels is because people have other concepts they want to play, not because they are really dissatisfied with their current PCs.

I was referring to the True Polymorph spell which has the line "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled." And dispelling a 9th level spell isn't easy.

Ah, got it.

The level 20 fighter is pretty mundane and isn't really a master of anything.

Well, I guess we shall simply agree to disagree. I see a Fighter 20 as a master of combat. I am not saying WotC could have done a better job, but I don't see it as bleakly as you do.

No, I did. The paladin is a caster.

Half-caster. (j/k)

And how many times does the fighter actually need to climb in a day?

Depends on what the PCs are doing. How often does the wizard need to fly in a day??

It doesn't have to be magical. It has to be fast.

Why does it have to be fast? What is fast? Is the 10 minutes of concentration on the spell fast? The point is the wizard can make the wall by magic, the fighter by building it. Both create a wall, eventually.

Where heroic and super heroic start both on the power scale and for martials is an interesting question IMO.

Good question! If you read through that section of the DMG, even the book says at tier 4 the PCs have "superheroic capabilities."

In looking at the classes, the only classes that really seem to completely lack those capabilities at tier 4 is the Fighter and Ranger. With subclass selection, maybe they do, but in the core classes not really.

Now, those capabilities they do have might not be what you want, certainly, but there is no arguing that with the other classes they capabilities they have in tier 4 are "superheroic."

 

[DND_Reborn]

WotC doesn't seem to be including epic levels or 20-30 levels as they did respectively in 3e and 4e. I guess 15-20 is what was called epic in the past, reflecting the globally lowered power level.

Sure, I could see that. At the very least tier 4 certainly.

But, for my own style of play, it is also why I've house-ruled nerfing caster access to "high magic" (6th+) spells. For me it isn't so much about getting martials more power as curtailing the power of casters in tier 3 and 4.

 

[DND_Reborn]

every hero has an origin... Merlin was half demon... Gandalf was a god/angel, we let the casters play at that level but not the martial

They're really more NPCs IMO.

And if you gave martials those origins, they cease to be "mundane humans" and become something else. Now, their super hero powers are fueled by their origins, and they are magical/ mystical.

 

[DND_Reborn]

And this is a flaw in D&D.

Agreed. Every ability score should have ramifications for every class. How big those ramifications are might vary, but they should exist IMO.

 

[DND_Reborn]

What if we called them stabmages instead of fighters?

Could they be allowed to be awesome then?

How about calling them "Jedi"?

 

[Garthanos]

But that's not an ability exclusive to Heracles. Anyone can think of diverting a river. It took his muscle to perform that task, though. Same way a wizard doesn't have the spell "Divert River" but has the spell "Mold Earth." (Okay, they do have control water but that's besides the point).

or excessive versatility is also a point...

The point is that the actual acts aren't something you can stop doing by simply forgetting. If Heracles leveled up, it'd make no sense why if he came upon a new river that needed diversion, he could no longer do it.

yes loss of competence by level is not sensible, that seems an entirely different issue to me .

And yeah, it's kinda not easy to justify why casters can forget the Fireball spell even if they'd have casted it 500 times before. But if you try to really criticize it, it can be waved away with "Magic, duh."

And the hulk really isn't calculating the precise force needed to break a Boulder.

Did you catch how I discussed there could be differing styles of flavoring of what that expenditure of exertion means just like hit points have different reasons? Are you straining, are you getting lucky, is your focus waning.

Other feats, sure, but boulders are fragile enough on his scale that he doesn't need to perform calculations.

sure and perhaps that is the kind of a flavor difference (I was showing how one could stretch the more mortal flavor). But the fact is as someone else pointed out gradual reveal of divine heritage (aka the same one Herakles and Cuh Chulainne and a large portion of the inspirations for the fighter class in the 2e PHB had is a fine backstory for super powered that is let's call it unapologetic.

They're like clumps of sand to him. It probably takes more intelligence to hold a boulder and not crush it.

heh we can insert accidental applications of excess force for flavorful fun I am sure.

 

[Garthanos]

2e PHB - count the number with divine heritage (*or claimed in the case of Alexander). Hero in Greek was literally defender but also basically meant demigod.

"The fighter is a warrior, an expert in weapons and, if he is clever, tactics and strategy.There are many famous fighters from legend: Hercules, Perseus, Hiawatha, Beowulf, Siegfried, Cuchulain, Little John, Tristan, and Sinbad. History is crowded with great generals and warriors: El Cid, Hannibal, Alexander the Great, Charlemagne, Spartacus, Richard the Lionheart, and Belisarius."