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D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 2 - The Mundane Limit

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
A fighter jumping into another plane or a ranger ranging into another plane seems plausible if you say the martial rips into the innate magic of the world.

Like a ranger could track and search for the minute cracks in reality. Maybe a planar crack stinks. "I smell... cinnamon?.. and rotten mushrooms? Oh a planar fissure to the Feywild" Horizon Walker 101

Or a warrior jumps so hard that they trigger the latent magic of a long dead witchcraft to leap into Hell.
 

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Olympic Record is 29ft and 25ft
5e long jump is: Str Score in Feet
Remarkable Athlete (Level 7): Str Score + Str Mod in Feet
Jump spell is : 3 x Jump distance

So to me

Normal: 20ft
Heroic: 30 ft
Paragon: 40ft
Epic: 60ft
So, setting aside the discussion of the big picture, I'd say that in instances like these, you need to ditch ideas like direct scaling from tier to tier. Normal and Heroic, sure. Heroic is essentially just normal, but exaggerated. But if I were to make comparisons, I'd wouldn't use normal as what everything was based on, but rather use what you were trying to emulate. For example:

Normal: An Alexandre Dumas novel
Heroic: The Lord of the Rings movies (or any movie with implausible yet not straight up supernatural action sequences)
Paragon: Dynasty Warriors
Epic: Shounen anime

You wouldn't need those specifically, but it would give you an idea of where to place the limits of abilities. So in that particular scale, a epic tier character wouldn't even need a specific jump ability, but rather an all encompassing move ability that essentially lets them close the distance to whatever point they chose within line of sight instantaneously. And because your model in this case is shounen, you can say they're just that damn good.

I might go more into that later, but I have to go do the Christmas thing now.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
5000 feet is less than a mile. And as you're jumping, you can only take what you can carry.

Teleport is 'the plane of existence' as a range at level 7 with up to 8 additional targets unlimited by size. There's a mishap chart, but that only comes into play if the DM wants to be a pain/derail their own game/ make you cast twice.
So teleport comes into play at level 13, which most games never reach, and has a severe drawback unless the DM chooses to break it.
So jumping a mile a round is excessively less powerful than a 7th level spell.
If the DM chooses to break the spell. I use the mishap chart. My players only use teleport in an emergency.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Like I said, it's way less powerful unless the DM wants to blow up the game (or make you cast twice) to go anywhere on the plane.

But Teleport isn't even the right comparison.

Let's look at Dimension Door.

500ft range (just under 1/10th of a mile, always pin-point accurate whether you 'port straight down, through a wall, etc. You can carry one person you size with the only limit being their carrying capacity. The only way the DM can sabotage you with this one is unseen servants everywhere, which removes the plausible deniability of the teleport table. This is a 4th level spell, so online at level 7.
 

Yes this is what I am looking at....what abilities can we give martials that still compete in the same sphere as high level casters, but still flavor them in a way that feels "physically possible". Finding that line is the key to the exercise.

And we don't have to make them exactly equal, its ok if once per day a wizard can do X....and a martial can-do a less ability Y but do it all day. There is a point of balance there. If a caster can teleport 1/day, and a martial can rip through any door like its paper...both serve useful niches.

A martial might have a similar effect to a spell, but it takes significantly longer....however, perhaps it lasts much longer than the spell does as a counterbalance.

I'm not sure these design parameters are solvable. Is it really possible to flavor abilities as "feeling a bit incredible but still physically possible for an earth human" and compete in the same sphere as high level casters that cast dimension door, plane shift, wish, etc.?

From the long jump example and answers I don't think so. If your goal is to get a little closer to parity then ok.

I think you are looking at it from the right angle though in terms of effect or even better "ability to overcome a type of challenge".

What is the challenge that can be overcome with dimension door? The ability to bypass any physical obstacles to get to a location 500 ft away. It also does this silently so there is a stealth component. It also does this fairly reliable in one action.

What would this look like as a "feeling incredible but still physically possible for an earth human"? In normal D&D like abilities this seems impossible. If you are able to give classes more narrative abilities it could look like "you are able to sneak past any sentries no matter what they are, squeeze through any cracks, unlock any doors etc. and get to your destination up to 500 feet away without anyone being alerted". This is still not as good as dimension door as it requires spaces to move through that can be manuvered by an earth human but maybe you can do it more times a day.

A "mythic martial" has more design space as you could bash through stone walls, hulk jump, etc.
 

So in that particular scale, a epic tier character wouldn't even need a specific jump ability, but rather an all encompassing move ability that essentially lets them close the distance to whatever point they chose within line of sight instantaneously. And because your model in this case is shounen, you can say they're just that damn good.

Yep, D&D generally gives these "you activate the ability and a lot of stuff happens" to spells but restricts martial abilities to much more decrete pieces of a task or overcoming a challenge. But there's no reason this has to be.
 

Eubani

Legend
Mythical Martial 101: Ignore the opinions of spell caster supremacists, otherwise you will never reach the realm of mythical ability.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think it's less that they wat spellcasters to be more powerful than non-spellcasters and more that a martial type who gets so good that his effects are clearly supernatural, should have those effects labelled supernatural. A lot of the abilities on the list the OP put forth would be fine as abilities where the marital character transcends the natural, but not as a purely mundane ability. There is no purely mundane ability that's going to create an earthquake if you hit the ground.
All characters who can go toe-to-toe with a bus-sized magical flammenwerfer and not only walk away, but boast of chokeslamming it are supernatural by Earth standards. Period. There are no non-supernatural characters in D&D. I mean, hell, Gygax's own descriptions of HP (from the 1e DMG, as far as I can tell) say it outright (emphasis added):

These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and / or magical factors....
Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The some holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.
Every character, even a Fighter--someone who does not intentionally invoke or channel magic proper--is still supernatural by Earth standards. Things that are supernatural to us might in fact be completely ordinary to D&D characters, ordinary enough that they would find our standard of "ordinary" to be rather disappointing.


Since it was already brought up, let's talk about Come and Get It, one of the hot-button powers of 4e. This is a power that--even in this very thread--people have described as being effectively mind control ("Why does a reasonably intelligence [sic] creature just suddenly dive at the fighter and ultimately to their doom, just because the fighter wants them to?") Here is the text of that power (formatted as best I can to resemble how it would look in the book.) There would also be a sentence or two of flavor text between the power's name and description.

EncounterMartial, Weapon
Standard Action
Close burst 3
Target: Each enemy you can see in the burst
Attack: Strength vs. Will
Hit: You pull the target up to 2 squares, but only if it can end the
pull adjacent to you. If the target is adjacent to you after the pull,
it takes 1[W] damage.
So. Some terminology here. This is an Encounter power (usable once per fight), loosely analogous to the Battle Master's Superiority Dice being regained with a short rest, but slightly more reliable (as 4e SR is only 5 min). It has the keywords Martial and Weapon, so circumstances that affect Martial powers apply to it and it may gain various effects from the weapon you use to make the attack...though you do need a weapon to use it. "Standard action" = what 5e just calls "an action." "Close burst 3": a "close" power starts from your location, and a burst goes out some distance from its starting square; in this case, it affects 3 squares (=15 feet) in all directions from the user.

The attack targets all enemies you can see within the burst; enemies with total concealment, invisibility, etc. are unaffected. You roll the attack roll using your Strength modifier, attacking the target's Will defense, which is the 4e equivalent of inducing a Wisdom (or Charisma) saving throw--notably, something two BM maneuvers do. One of those maneuvers even induces disadvantage on attacks if they don't include you until the end of your next turn, even if you move away!

Targets hit by by CaGI are "pulled up to 2 squares [10 feet] but only if [they] can end the pull adjacent to" the user. "Pull" is another system term--it's a form of movement that must have every part of the movement bring the target physically closer. If there were, say, a wall of force separating the Fighter that used this power and a target (so the Fighter could still see the target), nothing would happen to that target, because "pull" effects don't let you move the target around obstacles. If a target is hit by CaGI and pulled so that it ends its turn adjacent to the Fighter that used this power, then the Fighter deals 1[W] (one weapon damage die/dice for 2d6-type weapons, plus any static modifiers) to that target.

So...that's it. That's all it does. If an enemy is close enough, and can physically make the move, and the Fighter actually succeeds on attacking the target's Will, then the target is effectively goaded into approaching and gets punished for doing so. It's very literally shouting "COME AT ME BRO!" and hoping your delivery is good enough that some of your opponents actually fall for it.

If 5e's Goading Attack and Menacing Attack are perfectly acceptable (Fighters inducing Wisdom saves in order to make enemies behave a certain way), so is CaGI. If anything, CaGI is better, since (as an Encounter power), you can't pull off the same trick twice--your enemies get wise to that approach and you have to try something else.

Thanks @bert1001 fka bert1000 and @EzekielRaiden for the explanations!
My pleasure. I'm well aware that 4e is often the "forgotten" (rather, "never played it") edition, so I try to be informative when I can. As I did with the above, I hope.

Yes, I would call it a "different form of caster", but after hearing how it works not to the extent I was imagining before. :)
Which is fair. I guess what you could say is that 4e decided that (in a sense) "casual" magic--magic that infuses the stuff you do all the time, as opposed to stuff you spend a good amount of time preparing for and then it's gone--was what differentiated Fighter etc. from Wizard etc. That is, for a Wizard, basically every single thing they do is magic. It's difficult for them to do anything that isn't magic in some way. Throwing enemies around the battlefield, teleporting real quick across a chasm, even dematerializing in a puff of smoke to dodge enemy attacks (no joke, just found that power looking for some examples). The Wizard oozes magic. But anyone who wants to learn how to control ritual magic, the magic of pomp and circumstance, of skillful tricks supplemented by drawing diagrams on the floor in chalk or salt or placing candles at geomantic nodes or whatever...with some investment of both training (skills, a feat) and money (learning the ritual, buying components).

For my part, I see rituals as sort of...a thing truly anyone can learn, because the magic arises from following a "recipe" rather than drawing on personal power or skill. Ritual magic is what the town priest, the blacksmith, and the wise sage pracitce. Adventurers can also learn that form of magic, but it is rare to find someone who can practice such things while an orc is trying to practice making "gish-kabobs," as it were. :p
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
My pleasure. I'm well aware that 4e is often the "forgotten" (rather, "never played it") edition, so I try to be informative when I can. As I did with the above, I hope.
You (and the others) did, which I appreciate since I would like to be informed to contribute more to the discussion, hopefully . ;)

For my part, I see rituals as sort of...a thing truly anyone can learn, because the magic arises from following a "recipe" rather than drawing on personal power or skill. Ritual magic is what the town priest, the blacksmith, and the wise sage pracitce. Adventurers can also learn that form of magic, but it is rare to find someone who can practice such things while an orc is trying to practice making "gish-kabobs," as it were. :p
That is a perfectly good way to look at it, if you want that much access to magic in your game (which is certainly fine!).

One of the biggest discussions I often have with other DMs is about the prevalence of magic in the game world. For instance...
  • Does every kitchen maid/cook know minor magic to flavor the food?
  • Are areas of the city lit up at night with continue flame spells, cast over hundreds of years?
  • Is there a priest capable of healing an injured worker in every town?
  • Are commoners used to gathering in groups to frighten off a worg attacking their livestock?
  • And so on...

If you want things like rituals, as in "recipes", for magic to be commonplace, that changes the outlook of the game world dramatically from someone who wants it so a commoner can live their entire life with seeing a spell more powerful than a cantrip. The same issue raises itself when we consider just what PCs can do, particularly given the disparity of power-levels between high-level martials and casters.

A "standard" has to be set, at which point variants can be established. But even then in implementing the variants, what degree of difference can be accepted to create them? A lot of people recognize the idea of "low" and "high" magic games. But with the desire of posters who want more equal martials, it really becomes a matter of "low" and "high" power games. Casters, however, unless you also rate their spells, have all their spells, regardless of the variant of "low", "mid", and "high" power games.

The easiest adjustment to balance casters vs martials would involve capping casters spell levels, and perhaps adjusting the spell progression like in the thread I started. Something along the lines of "low" would cap at 5th level spells, where spells like Teleport and Raise Dead would represent the pinnacle of caster ability. "Mid" might stop at 7th, and then "high" could stop at 9th. Then you can adjust the features of martials to match it, in one manner or another.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
All characters who can go toe-to-toe with a bus-sized magical flammenwerfer and not only walk away, but boast of chokeslamming it are supernatural by Earth standards. Period. There are no non-supernatural characters in D&D. I mean, hell, Gygax's own descriptions of HP (from the 1e DMG, as far as I can tell) say it outright (emphasis added):


Every character, even a Fighter--someone who does not intentionally invoke or channel magic proper--is still supernatural by Earth standards. Things that are supernatural to us might in fact be completely ordinary to D&D characters, ordinary enough that they would find our standard of "ordinary" to be rather disappointing.

Having martial characters be supernatural in some way isn't the issue. Not everything they do is supernatural, even if you have hit points being magical blessings and not just skill and luck. When a fighter takes a normal attack, there's nothing at all supernatural about it. It's 100% mundane. If a fighter has the ability to split a mountain in half with a single swing due to his high level training, that's supernatural. All I want is for those sorts of things to be labelled such. Some people are arguing for the complete mundane ability to do clearly supernatural things.
Since it was already brought up, let's talk about Come and Get It, one of the hot-button powers of 4e. This is a power that--even in this very thread--people have described as being effectively mind control ("Why does a reasonably intelligence [sic] creature just suddenly dive at the fighter and ultimately to their doom, just because the fighter wants them to?") Here is the text of that power (formatted as best I can to resemble how it would look in the book.) There would also be a sentence or two of flavor text between the power's name and description.

So. Some terminology here. This is an Encounter power (usable once per fight), loosely analogous to the Battle Master's Superiority Dice being regained with a short rest, but slightly more reliable (as 4e SR is only 5 min). It has the keywords Martial and Weapon, so circumstances that affect Martial powers apply to it and it may gain various effects from the weapon you use to make the attack...though you do need a weapon to use it. "Standard action" = what 5e just calls "an action." "Close burst 3": a "close" power starts from your location, and a burst goes out some distance from its starting square; in this case, it affects 3 squares (=15 feet) in all directions from the user.
It would be mind control if it makes the person come to you on their own. You use the power and they are forced to choose to come rush you. Not every creature would fall prey to words that the fighter uses on that power, but some would lose their cool and do it. That all have to do it is why it's mind control. It would not be mind control if you somehow are using your weapon to physically force them closer to you. It would be supernatural since it would let the fighter physically use a weapon that probably doesn't have a 10 foot reach to yank those creatures in, but it wouldn't be mind control.
So...that's it. That's all it does. If an enemy is close enough, and can physically make the move, and the Fighter actually succeeds on attacking the target's Will, then the target is effectively goaded into approaching and gets punished for doing so. It's very literally shouting "COME AT ME BRO!" and hoping your delivery is good enough that some of your opponents actually fall for it.
It's nonsensical or every creature to be goaded by normal words, though. Like completely nonsensical. There's nothing you or that fighter could say that would get me to rush you like that. The only way you or that fighter could do it would be with some sort of supernatural mind control.
 

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