D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 2 - The Mundane Limit

[Stalker0]

And then there is the "what should a heroic martial look like that strains the definition of mundane into action hero / low tier street superhero range?" I think this is your intention for what you want to discuss out of the OP?

Yes this is what I am looking at....what abilities can we give martials that still compete in the same sphere as high level casters, but still flavor them in a way that feels "physically possible". Finding that line is the key to the exercise.

And we don't have to make them exactly equal, its ok if once per day a wizard can do X....and a martial can-do a less ability Y but do it all day. There is a point of balance there. If a caster can teleport 1/day, and a martial can rip through any door like its paper...both serve useful niches.

A martial might have a similar effect to a spell, but it takes significantly longer....however, perhaps it lasts much longer than the spell does as a counterbalance.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yes this is what I am looking at....what abilities can we give martials that still compete in the same sphere as high level casters, but still flavor them in a way that feels "physically possible". Finding that line is the key to the exercise.

And we don't have to make them exactly equal, its ok if once per day a wizard can do X....and a martial can-do a less ability Y but do it all day. There is a point of balance there. If a caster can teleport 1/day, and a martial can rip through any door like its paper...both serve useful niches.

A martial might have a similar effect to a spell, but it takes significantly longer....however, perhaps it lasts much longer than the spell does as a counterbalance.

So, when you say "physically possible", can we walk through the long jump example I posted above?

Consider a long jump. IRL world record is just under 30 feet.

So, what is a superheroic/paragon/epic level long jump?

• 50 feet?
• 500 feet?
• 5000 feet?
• Jumping into another plane of existence?
• Or what?

Because I am afraid there won't be enough consensus to really make any progress.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Good points. But part of the issue is also defining what really is superheroic?

Consider a long jump. IRL world record is just under 30 feet.

So, what is a superheroic/paragon/epic level long jump?

• 50 feet?
• 500 feet?
• 5000 feet?
• Jumping into another plane of existence?
• Or what?

There is also the issue of at-will or constant power versus limited use. Wish is the most powerful spell in the game, but an Archmage can use it once per long rest. So, is being able to jump 5000 feet at will equal to Wish? If not, what is? Until some agreement can be reached, it is all a matter of opinion and perspective.

Since there doesn't seem to be a consensus on what level of power is necessary to rival the archmage, I don't really know how we can proceed.

I think there is more consensus on what a martial that equals an Archmage might have, then the other conversation. Many people don't like this concept at all and refuse to engage on it. (not pointing to you). Clearly there is a lot of room and a very high ceiling for a once a day ablity when comparing it to wish. You can do almost anything you can think of as a once a day ability and if it is somewhat narrow (only jumping) and less flexible than wish (everything is), it isn't breaking anything in terms of relative power or impact.

Perfect Lie - This one is borderline, but still seems mundane to me.
Beyond the Limit - This one seems okay to me as well. I might actually make it 1 round only with no exhaustion levels, but you can push longer than 1 round with a level of exhaustion for each round past the 1st. So if you want to use if for 6 rounds, you will finish with 5 levels of exhaustion.
Dispelling Blow - This one seems to go beyond the purely mundane and into the supernatural.
Absolute Defense - This one can be mundane, though I wouldn't specify "natural 1" since a lot of tables use fumble charts. Just making it a miss is sufficient.
Dance of Daggers - This one seems supernatural to me unless you are doing nothing else. I don't see someone being able to actually fight in combat AND correctly perform these techniques unless there's a little bit of supernatural going on.

For instance, when Maxperson is making these distinctions I don't think he is saying that these things are "mythical/epic level" and that including them will make the martial equal to a 20th level D&D Wizard. I think they are just saying these abilities cross the line into supernatural to them and they wouldn't want them included into a "pure mundane martial".

So there is some inbetween -- You could have a set of abilities that is "supernatural" to someone and "mundane" to someone else, but both would agree that that same set of abililities is clearly not as powerful and flexible as full spellcasting.

I could be wrong but my sense is that this mundane martial / heroic martial line has a lot more disagreement than what it means to have a super heroic / mythic martial.

 

[Stalker0]

So, when you say "physically possible", can we walk through the long jump example I posted above?

To me that would be a case where the result is nigh impossible, but close enough to reality that I could believe the most extraordinary of people could do it.

So a 50 foot long jump is insane, but if I saw a person do it, I could believe that with a crazy adrenaline surge it might be possible. 100 feet/500 feet.... no, that would HAVE to be some enhancement, technology, etc etc.

 

[Maxperson]

For instance, when Maxperson is making these distinctions I don't think he is saying that these things are "mythical/epic level" and that including them will make the martial equal to a 20th level D&D Wizard. I think they are just saying these abilities cross the line into supernatural to them and they wouldn't want them included into a "pure mundane martial".

So there is some inbetween -- You could have a set of abilities that is "supernatural" to someone and "mundane" to someone else, but both would agree that that same set of abililities is clearly not as powerful and flexible as full spellcasting.

I could be wrong but my sense is that this mundane martial / heroic martial line has a lot more disagreement than what it means to have a super heroic / mythic martial.

I hadn't really considered exactly what level these abilities would be, but by and large I think that most of them are fairly high level. Disintegration and earthquake strikes would be roughly on par with whatever spell level those are, and I think you get those spells at higher than 10th level. So while I don't think that those abilities mean you are 20th level of higher, I didn't see any on that list that I would place at low or mid levels.

There could be milder versions of them that work at low or mid level, though. So instead of a disintegrating or shattering strike taking down something in one swing, you break a piece of something per swing and it takes you a bit of time to reduce the object to dust/pieces.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I could be wrong but my sense is that this mundane martial / heroic martial line has a lot more disagreement than what it means to have a super heroic / mythic martial.

Well, if you are right, more's the pity, because so far I don't think I've seen much evidence to support a greater disparity for mundane / heroic martial, but I came late to the discussion so maybe I missed it earlier on?

Clearly there is a lot of room and a very high ceiling for a once a day ablity when comparing it to wish. You can do almost anything you can think of as a once a day ability and if it is somewhat narrow (only jumping) and less flexible than wish (everything is), it isn't breaking anything in terms of relative power or impact.

Yep, which is why it becomes a comparison of the feature to when it is gained, thus what power of spells do we want to compare it to?

Returning the the jump example. If the feature was gained in tier 4, to potentially rival Wish in some fashion, you might have a feature like this:

Unearthly Leap
Harnessing an inner strength deep within yourself, you can leap incredible distances, even propelling yourself into another plane of existence. You can use your action to make either a long or high jump, leaping to any point you can see. You can do this a number of times equal to your Strength modifier, regaining all spent uses when you finish a long rest. Using this feature does not count towards your movement (speed?).

You can also use this feature to leap into another plane of existence, but when you use this feature in this way you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

 

[Minigiant]

Good points. But part of the issue is also defining what really is superheroic?

Consider a long jump. IRL world record is just under 30 feet.

So, what is a superheroic/paragon/epic level long jump?

• 50 feet?
• 500 feet?
• 5000 feet?
• Jumping into another plane of existence?
• Or what?

There is also the issue of at-will or constant power versus limited use. Wish is the most powerful spell in the game, but an Archmage can use it once per long rest. So, is being able to jump 5000 feet at will equal to Wish? If not, what is? Until some agreement can be reached, it is all a matter of opinion and perspective.

Since there doesn't seem to be a consensus on what level of power is necessary to rival the archmage, I don't really know how we can proceed.

Olympic Record is 29ft and 25ft
5e long jump is: Str Score in Feet
Remarkable Athlete (Level 7): Str Score + Str Mod in Feet
Jump spell is : 3 x Jump distance

So to me

Normal: 20ft
Heroic: 30 ft
Paragon: 40ft
Epic: 60ft

 

[Vaalingrade]

5000 feet is less than a mile. And as you're jumping, you can only take what you can carry.

Teleport is 'the plane of existence' as a range at level 7 with up to 8 additional targets unlimited by size. There's a mishap chart, but that only comes into play if the DM wants to be a pain/derail their own game/ make you cast twice.

So jumping a mile a round is excessively less powerful than a 7th level spell.

 

[DND_Reborn]

5000 feet is less than a mile. And as you're jumping, you can only take what you can carry.

Teleport is 'the plane of existence' as a range at level 7 with up to 8 additional targets unlimited by size. There's a mishap chart, but that only comes into play if the DM wants to be a pain/derail their own game/ make you cast twice.

So jumping a mile a round is excessively less powerful than a 7th level spell.

Again, don't forget the balance between at will or even limited use versus a single use.

So, how would it compare to this idea:

Unearthly Leap
Harnessing an inner strength deep within yourself, you can leap incredible distances, even propelling yourself into another plane of existence. You can use your action to make either a long or high jump, leaping to any point you can see. You can do this a number of times equal to your Strength modifier, regaining all spent uses when you finish a long rest. Using this feature does not count towards your movement (speed?).

You can also use this feature to leap into another plane of existence, but when you use this feature in this way you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

You'd still be limited to what you could carry, or maybe you could take up to two other creatures (holding hands, etc.)?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Additional jump data:

Superheroic rooftoppers (the next level above street level heroes who are explicitly mundane and are challenged by ordinary crime) routinely jump across city boulevards. Standard US lane is 12ft and a boulevard is 4-6 lanes, so minimum rooftopper jump distance is between 48 and 72 feet.

Limiting be STR mod in that example is going to be worse then slot limits once you pass the limit you gain the spell. Still not more powerful than teleport even as an at-will.