D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 2 - The Mundane Limit

[EzekielRaiden]

That all have to do it is why it's mind control.

Not all have to do it. Those that don't lose their cool are the ones not hit by the attack.

Again: Why is CaGI bad, but Goading Attack and Menacing Attack are not? The former is literally described as goading the target so that it struggles to attack anything else--even though by your own logic, both here and below, that shouldn't work. The latter is able to frighten anything that fails its save, doesn't matter if it's a dragon* dozens of times larger than you are or an owlbear or a mind flayer or a mindless skeleton.

Why do the 5e things that work the exact same way (an offensive maneuver that assaults targets' willpower) get a pass when the 4e one doesn't? If CaGI is mind control, why aren't they?

*Assuming it isn't an adult black dragon, since they're immune to frightened, and doesn't spend a use of Legendary Resistance. Weirdly, ancient black dragons are still subject to frightened!

It's nonsensical or every creature to be goaded by normal words, though.

Who said it always had to be words? Yes, I said "it's literally X" but I pretty obviously meant that if you were fighting creatures that understand language. Other contexts invite other things; 4e wore its reskinning pretty openly, particularly when it came to powers, just as a wizard can flavor their magic missiles as flaming skulls or precision darts or nyan-cats if you really want.

And the creature thing? Gimme a break. We already have creatures that are NOT hungry and NOT desperate actively attacking armed, dangerous human(oid)s. No sane predator does that. We're not talking about realistic creatures with realistic behavior to begin with.

 

[Mordhau]

Not all have to do it. Those that don't lose their cool are the ones not hit by the attack.

Again: Why is CaGI bad, but Goading Attack and Menacing Attack are not? The former is literally described as goading the target so that it struggles to attack anything else--even though by your own logic, both here and below, that shouldn't work. The latter is able to frighten anything that fails its save, doesn't matter if it's a dragon* dozens of times larger than you are or an owlbear or a mind flayer or a mindless skeleton.

Why do the 5e things that work the exact same way (an offensive maneuver that assaults targets' willpower) get a pass when the 4e one doesn't? If CaGI is mind control, why aren't they?

*Assuming it isn't an adult black dragon, since they're immune to frightened, and doesn't spend a use of Legendary Resistance. Weirdly, ancient black dragons are still subject to frightened!


Who said it always had to be words? Yes, I said "it's literally X" but I pretty obviously meant that if you were fighting creatures that understand language. Other contexts invite other things; 4e wore its reskinning pretty openly, particularly when it came to powers, just as a wizard can flavor their magic missiles as flaming skulls or precision darts or nyan-cats if you really want.

And the creature thing? Gimme a break. We already have creatures that are NOT hungry and NOT desperate actively attacking armed, dangerous human(oid)s. No sane predator does that. We're not talking about realistic creatures with realistic behavior to begin with.

The 4e one has some issues around edge cases.

Eg with Come and Get it, you can get crossbowmen from a wall that's 10ft high above you to jumb off the wall and land in front of you (possibly with a save). This seems ridiculous based off the fluff for the power, but if we're encouraged to focus on the rules first, and see the fluff as...well "fluff" then it's perfectly legal. It's still not clear what happened, however, unless the player in the moment comes up with a clever way to reskin*. Now the GM can overrule that power in this instance as not really being plausible, but that still creates a bit of an issue, because you wouldn't necessarily expect the GM to do that if the power was explicitly magical.

Goading attack in 5e has some of the same issues, but one, it's less impactful and the game as whole encourages more situational overrulling. It's a bit more open to the GM overruling it if they feel a creature with no mind couldn't actually be goaded. Also if you can't used one technique, you can still use all your superiority dice on something else, you're down an option, not an encounter power.

*And there's a difference between a power that tells you what it does in the game world and one which tells you what effect it has mechanically. There's not an absolute difference between 4e and 5e, but they're at different points on a spectrum.

 

[Maxperson]

Not all have to do it. Those that don't lose their cool are the ones not hit by the attack.

The point is that there are no non-magical words that can force saves like that in a bunch of different creatures. What triggers one or two won't trigger the rest. And some can't be triggered by words(no need to make any save).

Again: Why is CaGI bad, but Goading Attack and Menacing Attack are not? The former is literally described as goading the target so that it struggles to attack anything else--even though by your own logic, both here and below, that shouldn't work. The latter is able to frighten anything that fails its save, doesn't matter if it's a dragon* dozens of times larger than you are or an owlbear or a mind flayer or a mindless skeleton.

They should be supernatural effects. And as for goading attack, is the target forced to attack the fighter? No. So it's not mind control. The target is free to leave the battle, attack the fighter or attack a rock.

Why do the 5e things that work the exact same way (an offensive maneuver that assaults targets' willpower) get a pass when the 4e one doesn't? If CaGI is mind control, why aren't they?

Because mind control is taking over the target and forcing an action. Menacing Attack causes fear, but does not force specific actions. Goading Attack allows the target to do whatever the heck it wants still. The 4e power allows no such choices.

*Assuming it isn't an adult black dragon, since they're immune to frightened, and doesn't spend a use of Legendary Resistance. Weirdly, ancient black dragons are still subject to frightened!

My MM doesn't show adult black dragons as immune to being frightened.

Who said it always had to be words? Yes, I said "it's literally X" but I pretty obviously meant that if you were fighting creatures that understand language. Other contexts invite other things; 4e wore its reskinning pretty openly, particularly when it came to powers, just as a wizard can flavor their magic missiles as flaming skulls or precision darts or nyan-cats if you really want.

Words, gestures, it really doesn't matter. Pick any form of communication and the same problem is present.

We already have creatures that are NOT hungry and NOT desperate actively attacking armed, dangerous human(oid)s.

Why? There should be a reason or they wouldn't attack. DMs who have everything attack even when it doesn't make sense bug the heck out of me.

 

[MGibster]

We've got to start with adjusting what 'mundane' means in a world with flying tanks that shoot fire and are entirely natural, and work from there.

I do think this is important. It's like watching the Marvel movies/shows and seeing the likes of Hawkeye, Nick Fury, and Black Widow perform great feats or take damage that should have jellied their innards even thought they have no powers. Or if we're sticking to fantasy, reading about Lancelot knocking twenty other knights off their horses in short order.

 

[Azzy]

My issue is that it's not even going to work with all human soldiers or brigands. Each person has different triggers and some can't be triggered. Further, 8 human soldiers aren't going to rush in simultaneously. They'd get in each others way.

Fear not! Attacking against Will (or having the opponent make a Wis save) ensures that it won't work against all opponents all the time. Praise RNJ!

 

[Azzy]

Man, there's a lot about 4e that made me not want to adopt it (and I didn't—I stayed with 3.5e), but what it did with fighters was not one. I really wish that 5e's fighter looked more like 4e's fighter.

 

[Maxperson]

Fear not! Attacking against Will (or having the opponent make a Wis save) ensures that it won't work against all opponents all the time. Praise RNJ!

But it still forces them to resist as if magic, where words can't do that. Not on any sort of reliable basis forced saves give anyway.

 

[Azzy]

But it still forces them to resist as if magic, where words can't do that. Not on any sort of reliable basis forced saves give anyway.

Not necessarily words, but even then, it doesn't need to be magic to goad an opponent to attack you. I mean, this is just standard action-movie fare.

 

[Maxperson]

Not necessarily words, but even then, it doesn't need to be magic to goad an opponent to attack you. I mean, this is just standard action-movie fare.

An enemy once in a while, sure. That happens in movies, and in an RPG doesn't even require an ability to happen. Goading everyone on a reliable basis to the point where they must attack if they fail a save? Absent some mental or supernatural ability, I've never seen that in movie, but I suppose some super cheesy B movie might have had it happen. I tend to avoid those.

 

[Eubani]

Martial exploits with an amount of narrative control are not magic. Its just another lie to stop martial characters from getting nice things.