D&D 5E 5e* - D&D-now

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
As DM, do you understand it to be within your power to make them matter?
Mechanically or narratively? Because with the former I have no concern one way or the other-- I barely care that the mechanics of D&D for the most part do a horrible job of illustrating the story and narrative of the game world. So I don't even bother worrying about it. The board game is the board game and we'll play the board game as the rules instruct us to for the fun of the game... but the narrative layered on top of the board game is what actually matters.
 

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HammerMan

Legend
I must be really dense this morning. I'm not seeing the point here. DM drives most of the fiction outside of what the players can drive directly. Ok... and? Why is this being presented as some sort of breakthrough?

-- or, wait... Is this one of those, "Only the DM can call for rolls" balls of ... opinion? Players should never call for rolls? Players must only narrate and then the DM tells them what roll is appropriate? Is that the path we're being led down here?

'Cos, well, for my money, treating my players as if they were completely unaware that they are playing a game and probably know the rules better than I do is just not something I'm going to do. If the player says, "Let me do the talking, I have the best diplomacy score" then, well, fine? I'm certainly not going to get on their case about it.

Or, the player says, "I search the room. Perception X, what do I find?" again, totally fine. Not going to futz about it. Saves time, keeps the game moving at a fair pace, and, 99% of the time, it's exactly what would happen anyway.
100% this.

In modern current games I am playing and running in we all (about 7 of us) run games and play games and the 'newibe' has been playing for closer to 20 years then 10. I not only understand that there are rules some of them know better but I expect it. It was different pre Covid when I was doing pick up games at the store, or introducing new players... but we all know as much as each other.

Heck I have seen less experienced DMs ASK the players how stuff works... and sometimes with my 30+ (oh god I am old...when did that happen) experience still ask some of the others for exact ruleings.
 

Oofta

Legend
tbh I have been pushing for almost a year now that people who keep arguing the "RAW" or "Right way to read X" that the system is so open to interpretation from table to table that there is no 1 reading of RAW and that is BEFORE house rules and misunderstandings.
I agree, and that's even before they left some things intentionally up to the DM and group. I like that I have a lot of say about how stealth works, it gives me more freedom to emulate the type of fiction I'm going for.
 

Reynard

Legend
I agree, and that's even before they left some things intentionally up to the DM and group. I like that I have a lot of say about how stealth works, it gives me more freedom to emulate the type of fiction I'm going for.
I have been back and forth on the immersion to metagame scale over the years. I recently swung away from "approach and intent" because I felt that it was pulling me and my players too far out of the game and have returned to a "describe your actions and I will tell you the results or if you need to roll" style. Neither is right or wrong, it is just about preference and how I want my game to feel at a given time. I am running OD&D (by way of Delving Deeper with some S&W thrown in) later tonight and am definitely going to go with "tell me what you DO, not what you want to roll" for that game. Not least because one of those players is a "I roll stealth/perception/whatever" without being asked to type and I want to curb that. In this case I want more immersion.
 

Oofta

Legend
I have been back and forth on the immersion to metagame scale over the years. I recently swung away from "approach and intent" because I felt that it was pulling me and my players too far out of the game and have returned to a "describe your actions and I will tell you the results or if you need to roll" style. Neither is right or wrong, it is just about preference and how I want my game to feel at a given time. I am running OD&D (by way of Delving Deeper with some S&W thrown in) later tonight and am definitely going to go with "tell me what you DO, not what you want to roll" for that game. Not least because one of those players is a "I roll stealth/perception/whatever" without being asked to type and I want to curb that. In this case I want more immersion.

Yeah, there are times when I feel like people completely ignore sections of the DMG like Role of the Dice where they're very explicit that how you handle these things is really up to the group. I think it's a good way of doing it and one of the reason why 5E works for so many people.
 

Reynard

Legend
Yeah, there are times when I feel like people completely ignore sections of the DMG like Role of the Dice where they're very explicit that how you handle these things is really up to the group. I think it's a good way of doing it and one of the reason why 5E works for so many people.
In my experience running 5E -- including a lot of convention games -- "Can I roll perception?" is a lot more common than "I listen/look/sniff intently." I think 5E encourages people to focus on their characters sheets rather than the game, whatever the book says about the DM calling for rolls.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Characters are fighting a stone giant with 126 HP. A hit deals 1 HP. (In foregoing conversation the giant was described as "pressing forward".) The DM narrates

"Your glancing hit isn't enough to hold her back. I'm giving her a reaction - roll Strength - you can add Athletics or Acrobatics." DM has in mind that if giant's score beats player's, character will be shoved back 5 feet.

1) Is this case realistic? Could it come up in play?
2) Is this narration guided toward by 5e text (I am thinking in particular of words on DMG 5 and PHB 5)?"
3) Is it meaningful?
 

HammerMan

Legend
In my experience running 5E -- including a lot of convention games -- "Can I roll perception?" is a lot more common than "I listen/look/sniff intently." I think 5E encourages people to focus on their characters sheets rather than the game, whatever the book says about the DM calling for rolls.
I mean both tell you A) what they want to do, and B) why they think they can... the two statements seem the same to me.
 

Reynard

Legend
I mean both tell you A) what they want to do, and B) why they think they can... the two statements seem the same to me.
They are not the same because one engages primarily with the game mechanics, and the other engages primarily with the fiction. In both cases the player wants to know what they perceive, but in asking to make a roll the player is asserting how that is going to occur. But that is the GM's job. If a player asks "What do I hear" instead, they are engaging the fiction and preserving some sense of immersion, as well as conceding to the GM his authority (in the sense of being the author) over that fiction.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Like I said above, I guess it depends on how we are defining "actionable". To me...receiving the narration from the DM allows me to choose one of several actions-- attack again thinking the enemy is almost dead and I can kill it; not attacking if I think the monster isn't close to dead and I can't risk putting myself into jeopardy; attack but not kill the enemy in order to take it prisoner and then interrogate it, thinking that the DM might decide to maintain the narrative fiction they have established if my roleplaying during it takes advantage of the gaping wound (by healing it, sticking my hand in it and causing pain etc.) Those are all actions I can take.

Now are all these actions all narratively-related, rather than mechanical in nature? Yes. But that's fine by me! As I've said I really don't care that much about the mechanics. If I'm DMing, I do not need, nor require the players to have mechanical rules in place to do whatever they want. If I describe that the orc had a gaping wound and was bleeding badly and the players decide they want to not kill it and instead interrogate... and they make all the narrative choices like I mentioned above-- one playing "good cop" by healing the orc so as to not kill it, the other playing "bad cop" and using the wound as a torture method (or anything else they can think of)... I absolutely will play into that narrative and adjust any mechanics I end up putting into the scene by giving Advantage, Disadvantage, moving the orc's morale up or down etc. etc. based on their narrative actions they took in response to my narrative offer of the gaping wound (and then of course any extra info that comes out of the inevitable die roll.)

To me... the narrative is improv. And like in proper improv, it's always more effective to the scene to "Yes, And..." Drive the scene forward by "Anding..." whatever offer a player made via their narrative, just like they "Anded" my narrative offers. And none of that requires the D&D game mechanics. What the mechanics DO do... is to give us ideas as we improvise our actionable narratives to make new or different narrative choices we might not ordinarily have made on our own had the scene been completely improvised without any mechanics at all.

If the player and myself were improvising this fight... every single fight could be the player saying "I chop off his head and he dies." Which is perfectly acceptable and actionable as an offer, and then I as the DM would then take actions off of that offer. But the problem we could run into is that an improvisor can go to that well too often, and thus over time it no longer makes for interesting drama. Every improvised fight starts and ends with a single offered line of narrative? Possible and acceptable... but perhaps eventually not that much fun. So by adding game mechanics into the mix... now the player usually just can't declare "I cut off its head", but instead we will need to play out the scene bit by bit and use the results of the mechanics to have interesting things happen, and thus compel us to make new and perhaps more interesting dramatic actions and stories via the narrative that we might not otherwise have made. The mechanics lead our improvisation the same way playing an improv game like "Film & Theater Styles" will lead the improvised scene in a direction that it otherwise wouldn't go had the rules of that improv game not been in the mix.

But again... this is particular to my games and my tables and I freely acknowledge that probably few other tables think of or run their D&D in this way, so I don't expect many others here on the boards to necessarily agree (or at least not go as far as I tend to think of it.) And that's cool. But it does explain my personal beliefs of why I don't think game mechanics are the end-all-and-be-all of Dungeons & Dragons, and why getting so hung up on them (in every sense) removes the part of the game that I think is the most interesting.
The only information you passed that seems to matter to any of your proposed actions was that the orc was low on hitpoints. The wound described had no input into any of your proposed actions. My point is that how the wound is described -- the narration of this fiction -- has no use outside of passing coded information about hitpoints to the players. The gaping wound in the abdomen could have been described as a nick, or a bruise from barely getting a shield in place at the last minute, or any number of things. That you chose to describe the wound as a gaping abdominal wound allows no action that takes advantage of the fiction that the orc has a gaping abdominal wound. The only information here that the players can use is the coded passing of the relative state of the orc's hitpoint total. How that's described outside of passing that information is meaningless -- it does not create anything in the fiction the players can leverage.
 

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