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D&D 5E 5e* - D&D-now

Oofta

Legend
In my experience running 5E -- including a lot of convention games -- "Can I roll perception?" is a lot more common than "I listen/look/sniff intently." I think 5E encourages people to focus on their characters sheets rather than the game, whatever the book says about the DM calling for rolls.
Is that a result of 5E or just D&D and human behavior in general? I mean, this argument is as old as D&D. I was always the one saying that my thief (yes thief) knew how to find traps, I didn't. Others wanted people to describe how they were finding the trap or going into long drawn out descriptions of how they were getting down to the ground to see trip wires and carefully examining the wall for wear spots where others have pushed before.

I don't think either is better than the other. 🤷‍♂️
 

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Oofta

Legend
Characters are fighting a stone giant with 126 HP. A hit deals 1 HP. (In foregoing conversation the giant was described as "pressing forward".) The DM narrates

"Your glancing hit isn't enough to hold her back. I'm giving her a reaction - roll Strength - you can add Athletics or Acrobatics." DM has in mind that if giant's score beats player's, character will be shoved back 5 feet.

1) Is this case realistic? Could it come up in play?
2) Is this narration guided toward by 5e text (I am thinking in particular of words on DMG 5 and PHB 5)?"
3) Is it meaningful?
With my current players? They would enjoy it. We bend the rules now and then to be more cinematic. Previous group before I moved? They'd be all over it like ticks on a hound dog, and about as enjoyable.
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
Is that a result of 5E or just D&D and human behavior in general? I mean, this argument is as old as D&D. I was always the one saying that my thief (yes thief) knew how to find traps, I didn't. Others wanted people to describe how they were finding the trap or going into long drawn out descriptions of how they were getting down to the ground to see trip wires and carefully examining the wall for wear spots where others have pushed before.

I don't think either is better than the other. 🤷‍♂️
Sure. Pixel[blank]ing used to be a problem with certain GMs. But still, I think (if immersion is your goal) "I carefully examine the chest without touching it" is better than "I make a search for traps roll. clatter A 12!"
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
To be playing 5e* the [only] necessary change is that which is sufficient to narrate meaningfully. So that it matters.
I don't see how this answers the question, though. It's just a restatement of the vague requirement that lead to this point. What's the meaningful difference to narrate between the giant losing 1 hp and the giant losing 2 hp? Is there one, or is any description okay regardless of the details of the mechanical output so long as you describe anything meaningful? With meaningful, of course, being so vague as to encompass entertainment only at one end? So long as I'm being entertaining in my narration and that's sufficient for me, I'm now playing 5e*?
 

HammerMan

Legend
They are not the same because one engages primarily with the game mechanics, and the other engages primarily with the fiction. In both cases the player wants to know what they perceive, but in asking to make a roll the player is asserting how that is going to occur. But that is the GM's job. If a player asks "What do I hear" instead, they are engaging the fiction and preserving some sense of immersion, as well as conceding to the GM his authority (in the sense of being the author) over that fiction.
word games...

I am not interested in telling my friends (or my friends telling me) to use different words to relate the same ends.

a) Can I make a perception check
b) can I see anything

a) can I make an investigation check
b) can I search

a) can I hide
b) can I make a stealth check

all 3 have the same answers for A and B in my games...
Dm determines if they need to make a check or if they just give them the info... then relay the answer (and maybe result) to the player.

IF a DM regularly 'corrected' a player asking one way over the other I would get annoyed quickly and snap "You know what they mean"
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
word games...

I am not interested in telling my friends (or my friends telling me) to use different words to relate the same ends.

a) Can I make a perception check
b) can I see anything

a) can I make an investigation check
b) can I search

a) can I hide
b) can I make a stealth check

all 3 have the same answers for A and B in my games...
Dm determines if they need to make a check or if they just give them the info... then relay the answer (and maybe result) to the player.

IF a DM regularly 'corrected' a player asking one way over the other I would get annoyed quickly and snap "You know what they mean"
So you don't care about immersion. That's great for you and your table. I specifically said I preferred the latter style in order to increase immersion.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Yeah, there are times when I feel like people completely ignore sections of the DMG like Role of the Dice where they're very explicit that how you handle these things is really up to the group. I think it's a good way of doing it and one of the reason why 5E works for so many people.
Just a quibble, but the Role of the Dice section has only language about the GM calling for rolls and nothing about the players asking for them (or just rolling them). Still, good section, worth reading.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
I don't see how this answers the question, though. It's just a restatement of the vague requirement that lead to this point. What's the meaningful difference to narrate between the giant losing 1 hp and the giant losing 2 hp? Is there one, or is any description okay regardless of the details of the mechanical output so long as you describe anything meaningful? With meaningful, of course, being so vague as to encompass entertainment only at one end? So long as I'm being entertaining in my narration and that's sufficient for me, I'm now playing 5e*?
Suppose [for the sake of argument] that there is no meaningful difference between hitting the stone giant for 1 hit point or for 2 hit points. In that case, such content alone cannot satisfy 5e*, but 5e* does not relax its requirements.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
word games...

I am not interested in telling my friends (or my friends telling me) to use different words to relate the same ends.

a) Can I make a perception check
b) can I see anything

a) can I make an investigation check
b) can I search

a) can I hide
b) can I make a stealth check

all 3 have the same answers for A and B in my games...
Dm determines if they need to make a check or if they just give them the info... then relay the answer (and maybe result) to the player.

IF a DM regularly 'corrected' a player asking one way over the other I would get annoyed quickly and snap "You know what they mean"
Here's the thing -- I don't allow those questions, either. Or rather, if those questions are being asked, I feel like I've not done my job as GM. Mind you, this is entirely because of how I've chosen to play -- there's nothing in 5e that says you should play this way, or any claim by me that my approach is superior. It is different, in that I don't have these questions pop up and if they do I feel like it's my fault as GM that they have because I've chosen to approach play in a way that has a strong imperative to eliminate the need for these kinds of questions.

Bluntly, my general approach to play is to overshare information -- I feel that I could just hand my notes to the players and not much at all would change in play. Typically this is because I do not base the design of a challenge on any part of it remaining secret.

What's very odd is that my general approach to play is not very far off from the OP's suggestion, I just don't pretend it's demanded by or the best interpretation of RAW -- it's a choice on my part, not a requirement and not directly supported by the rules. 5e is too vague and internally inconsistent for any such claim to survive. They all eventually come down to special pleading at some point.
 


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