D&D 5E Psionics in a sci-fi D&D

[Minigiant]

It still isn't a distinction that makes any sense to me. In all of the psionics threads no one has ever managed to even remotely coherently explain to me how one way of using the nature of the reality to levitate things with your mind is supernatural and other way of doing the exact same isn't.

One uses a system that can be fully understood by the user (Psionics)
One does not (Magic)

Basically D&D magic has parts a magic user will never understand and use logic that the magic user must accept but can't get why it worrks. Only deities and divine beings will get those parts.

Psionics has no such barrier. The user just has to be powerful enough and have enough knowledge or sense. Psionic powers make sense to the users and thats why they can modify it easily. Because its in their brain. It's like moving their limbs.

 

[Cadence]

One uses a system that can be fully understood by the user (Psionics)
One does not (Magic)

Basically D&D magic has parts a magic user will never understand and use logic that the magic user must accept but can't get why it worrks. Only deities and divine beings will get those parts.

Psionics has no such barrier. The user just has to be powerful enough and have enough knowledge or sense. Psionic powers make sense to the users and thats why they can modify it easily. Because its in their brain. It's like moving their limbs.

Is it that it is fully understood, or that it will presumably be fully understandable? We don't "fully understand" physics or chemistry or biology, but we assume it's all fully understandable and work from there.

Is there any fiction where "schools of magic" work on the same principals?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

In a classic 1950s sci-fi story there might be a scientist investigating electro-magnetic rays and proving that a part of the brain people don't tap connects to it. In the story world it's all science.

They could call it that. And people who wouldn't know the process behind it would probably call it magic if it produced magic-like effects.

The wizard comes in and does it with some words that have no reason they should work, and yet they do?

It works for some reason. We might not know the mechanisms behind it, but they exist.

You're right, that does seem unsatisfactory though. If we study enough, is it something that will be understandable, where we can write all the rules down and find some other force to add to gravity, weak, strong, electric and have an even-grander-unified theory?

Yes.

In a lot of stories is it that there is some force from a Universe beyond? Is it magic if the gods and demons do it, and they are so far above our understanding that we'll never be able to theorize how it works? (Why not? Story logic reasons?).

It simply means we don't have science advanced enough to understand it. But there are a lot of things we do not have science advanced enough to understand. But I doubt dark matter is 'supernatural.'

Distinction you seem to be trying to make is that it is not supernatural if the process is understood. But that is not quality of the thing, it merely relates to the amount of knowledge the statement maker has of the subject.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

One uses a system that can be fully understood by the user (Psionics)
One does not (Magic)

Like I said, that is not an objective quality of the thing, but a subjective quality of the statement maker.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

What does it actually mean? What is the difference in metaphysical sense?

Psychic powers are not philosophical. The scientific theories are that there are parts of the brain we do not actively access or use and that if we did, we might activate psychic abilities. Psychic powers are fully internal and powered by the brain. External forces can be interacted with and manipulated, but the power to do so still comes from within.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Psychic powers are not philosophical. The scientific theories are that there are parts of the brain we do not actively access or use and that if we did, we might activate psychic abilities. Psychic powers are fully internal and powered by the brain. External forces can be interacted with and manipulated, but the power to do so still comes from within.

So internal power to manipulate reality. Isn't that what sorcery is in D&D? Also, even if it was different sort of magic, it is still magic.

 

[Cadence]

So internal power to manipulate reality. Isn't that what sorcery is in D&D? Also, even if it was different sort of magic, it is still magic.

In Shadowrun 4e: "The Awakened world is permeated by mana, the energy of magic. Mana is invisible and intangible. It cannot be detected, measured, or influenced by machines, only by living beings. Mana is sensitive to emotion and responds to the will of the Awakened. It allows magicians to cast spells and summon spirits. [...] Magic can be defined as the manipulation of mana. Sorcery is the manipulation of mana to create or influence effects known as spells; Conjuring manipulates mana to call forth or affect spirits." "The Magic attirbute is only available to characters with the Magician, Adept, or Mystic Adept Qualities."

This having something that only certain people can sense and use - no matter what technology or training is used - feels like something that would give a dividing line between STEM and something super-STEM. I'm sure it has some flaws, but if one went with that, would it make psionics just be STEM if the stuff being manipulated could be detected, measured, and influenced by machines or any trained living thing (so we can make a device to see and deflect the brain waves, or we could train pretty much anyone to do it), but be super-STEM if there's no way to do those things?

Edit: I might have the "no matter what training part" wrong from the game standpoint, but it makes it seem even more supernaturally.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

So internal power to manipulate reality. Isn't that what sorcery is in D&D? Also, even if it was different sort of magic, it is still magic.

Maybe yes in D&D and maybe no in other game systems. The problem is that the core rules for D&D have never really supported true science, so everything is magical or pseudo-magical. For a different world/system, look at LotR and the introduction of explosive black powder by Saruman. As much as I love Tolkien and the setting, that one thing is always jarring to me and throws me out of the cool fantasy vibe every time I read or watch that part.

 

[Hussar]

Was it always? Or did they actually think ESP might be a thing at one point IRL that was explainable by biology, physics, and the electromagnetic spectrum?

Yes, it was always. Dune is a perfect example here, but, there are certainly others. They might have tried to give it pseudoscience trappings because it was in an otherwise SF story, but, yes, always.

 

[Minigiant]

Is it that it is fully understood, or that it will presumably be fully understandable? We don't "fully understand" physics or chemistry or biology, but we assume it's all fully understandable and work from there.

It's less that it's fully understandable and more that there aren't glaring gaps in the process that restricts understanding and research.
Like a wizard can't invent iceball because they can't reverse engineer fireball and had to go to a lot of hoops to get energy substituion.

Whereas a psion don't have the same restrictions in their lore.

Is there any fiction where "schools of magic" work on the same principals?

D&D's magic is a weird anomaly in fantasy. It has wide but precise effects with little alterations managed by higher beings or a predetermined world program.

In many/most forms of fantasy, magic works like psionics.