D&D 5E Psionics in a sci-fi D&D

[Scars Unseen]

Again, who is arguing that? That's a pretty slippery slope you're crafting here - because we can use the magic system to model psionics, that means that we're going to use the magic system to model every single element of the game?

I did no such thing. My point is that your argument of "this other thing shows that it is possible" doesn't add anything to the discussion. It's obviously possible to design anything any way you want. It isn't an argument for why it should be designed that way. Other classes could have been designed as a reskin of the wizard and yet they weren't. Why? Because other designs are also possible, and the designers felt those other designs better matched what they were trying to accomplish with the class.

So the question isn't why can't we design the psion like a wizard, but rather why should we design the psion like a wizard, or alternatively, why should we not. All that other stuff about Starcraft or whatever other properties people want to bring up is superfluous unless the person bringing them up is using them as an example of how they felt something else did a good job of modelling a psionic character or class.

 

[Mordhau]

I think with the Psion I'd be tempted to do a short rest spell points refresh class.

Short rest, because it reduces the major downside of spell points which is too much number tracking.

One of the issues with psionics in D&D is that there has always been quite a lot of duplication of powers (although not everything is duplicated, summoning and necromancy don't make good sense for psions), so the game has usually relied on mechanical differentiation to do a lot of the work of making psionics feel distinct.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

we don't need psionics because we already have wizards.

That's the big question really - do we already have wizards? The OP doesn't make that clear. Strictly speaking, if it's science fiction, then the answer should be "no". If the answer is "yes", then it's science fantasy, not science fiction.

If we have wizards, then we don't need psionics, but then by the same argument we don't need sorcerers or warlocks either. Doesn't mean we can't have it.

If we don't have wizards (and other spellcasting classes) then we probably do need some kind of space magic to provide a sufficiently large range of character options to make the game fun.

 

[Aldarc]

So the question isn't why can't we design the psion like a wizard, but rather why should we design the psion like a wizard, or alternatively, why should we not. All that other stuff about Starcraft or whatever other properties want to bring up are superfluous unless the person bringing them up is using them as an example of how they felt something else did a good job of modelling a psionic character or class.

(Not interested in “D&D doesn’t fit sci-fi” responses)

Assuming you accept the premise, would you prefer psionics to be magic reskinned or a totally new system?

If I was making a Sci-Fi D&D, I would probably utilize Starfinder's approach: i.e., The Mystic.

It would also use Wisdom, as I think that Wisdom maps better than either Intelligence or Charisma to common associations with psionics, psychic powers, mysticism, etc. (e.g., intuition, extrasensory perception, enlightenment, wisdom, willpower, etc.).

 

[Hussar]

I did no such thing. My point is that your argument of "this other thing shows that it is possible" doesn't add anything to the discussion. It's obviously possible to design anything any way you want. It isn't an argument for why it should be designed that way. Other classes could have been designed as a reskin of the wizard and yet they weren't. Why? Because other designs are also possible, and the designers felt those other designs better matched what they were trying to accomplish with the class.

So the question isn't why can't we design the psion like a wizard, but rather why should we design the psion like a wizard, or alternatively, why should we not. All that other stuff about Starcraft or whatever other properties people want to bring up is superfluous unless the person bringing them up is using them as an example of how they felt something else did a good job of modelling a psionic character or class.

Again, I don't think anyone is insisting that a psion be designed as a wizard. I've seen warlock, cleric, monk and sorcerer all posited as potential chassis.

And, again, while we do have different classes, none of those classes are using a unique magic system. All of them are using the identical mechanics.

I get the feeling that there's a lot of talking past people going on here.

As far as I can see, no one is insisting that we must never have a psionic class. At most, it's being suggested that it's possible to do without one, but, no one seems to be banging that particular drum very hard.

But, there's a WORLD of difference between "I want a psion class (or a set of psionic classes) and "I want an entirely unique set of mechanics for my single class and the only way to make this class different from other classes is by adding in an entirely different set of mechanics that will only apply to this one class and must never apply to any other class".

 

[Morrus]

Now that you have poisoned that particular well on a number of past occasions and interactions, it's pretty safe to say that I now distrust your motives and opinions regarding psionics each and every time you poke your head in these conversations. Your conversation here has done little to dissuade me from that suspicion. So maybe you shouldn't be asking who wee'd in my cornflakes while in the process of zipping up your fly.

I think it's time for you to disengage.

 

[Aldarc]

@Morrus, in your hypothetical about psionics in a sci-fi D&D, would this include other forms of magic (e.g., arcane, divine, etc.) alongside psionics?

I'll be the first to admit, I didn't pay much attention to 3e psionics - was a 3e psion using entirely different mechanics like the 2e psionic classes did? Or did it simply adapt the existing magic system.

It was essentially the 3.5e magic system with modifications. Powers went up to 9th level. It used power points instead of spell slots. You could spend additional power points to augment your psionic powers, likely the basis for up-casting, but there was a level-based cap on how many power points you could spend with each power manifestation. Some feats/abilities* also required that the psionist expend (or regain with a Concentration check) something called "psionic focus."

* For example: running up the side of the wall, psionic jumps, gain temporary fast healing, bonus damage, etc.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Again, I don't think anyone is insisting that a psion be designed as a wizard. I've seen warlock, cleric, monk and sorcerer all posited as potential chassis.

And, again, while we do have different classes, none of those classes are using a unique magic system. All of them are using the identical mechanics.

I get the feeling that there's a lot of talking past people going on here.

As far as I can see, no one is insisting that we must never have a psionic class. At most, it's being suggested that it's possible to do without one, but, no one seems to be banging that particular drum very hard.

But, there's a WORLD of difference between "I want a psion class (or a set of psionic classes) and "I want an entirely unique set of mechanics for my single class and the only way to make this class different from other classes is by adding in an entirely different set of mechanics that will only apply to this one class and must never apply to any other class".

So there have definitely been people asking for just a wizard reskin. No, I'm not digging through 23 pages to engage in a quote war over it. But setting that aside, I think you may be right about talking past each other. But that last paragraph is playing into that hard.

Just to speak for myself, not trying to claim what others are or are not suggesting, my big ask is to think of the goals of a psionics system first, then think of how best to meet those goals. I personally don't think a reskin is likely to meet the goal of modelling a sci-fi system of psi powers. I also don't think a single class could encapsulate the various psi tropes to satisfy me(but note that the OP mentions a psionics system, not a class). I don't think the toolbox nature of D&D magic really suits sci-fi psionics.

Combine all of those, and I think that the best fit may borrow from existing classes to an extent, but should also incorporate entirely new systems to meet the final goal. No, I don't think that those mechanics should never ever be borrowed from in turn. As for what kind of systems I'm talking about, I'd need more time to flesh out my ideas, but off the top of my head, some of the concepts I can think of might include:

1. Fewer abilities, more flexibility - instead of having a toolkit of various spells like casters, I'd prefer a core of a few abilities along a theme (telepathy, telekinesis, self-targeted biomanipulation, etc) with more ways to use them, expanding in scope, magnitude, etc. as the character develops.
2. Stress-based resource management - have a floor and a ceiling for ability use based on level. Usage below the floor is at will with no resource usage at all. Usage within the bounds of the two costs stress resources that return with a short rest. Usage at one level above uses double the resources and those resources don't return until a long rest. Usage at two levels above cost the same as one level above, but require a saving throw, a failure which exhausts all resources until a long rest (leaving at will use probable just for playability purposes).
3. Ways to customize abilities on a character basis so not all characters of the same theme play the same. Not sure on how to elaborate on that one yet.

 

[Aldarc]

Some thoughts:

1. Fewer abilities, more flexibility - instead of having a toolkit of various spells like casters, I'd prefer a core of a few abilities along a theme (telepathy, telekinesis, self-targeted biomanipulation, etc) with more ways to use them, expanding in scope, magnitude, etc. as the character develops.

I would not be opposed to a more limited toolkit of spells/powers. Again, Starfinder reduced the spell level across the board for all of its magic classes to 6th level spells max. Using the 5e Engine, this might be 5th level spells max or a half-caster design, but with highly flexible cantrip/talent casting alongside core abilities like telepathy.

In regards to the current fantasy half-casters: A "fantasy ranger" may (unfortunately) use spells in Fantasy D&D, but they may be more likely for a "sci-fi/fantasy ranger" to use technology for a similar purpose. So one could reduce magic across the board as technology would potentially fill a similar function.

1. Stress-based resource management - have a floor and a ceiling for ability use based on level. Usage below the floor is at will with no resource usage at all. Usage within the bounds of the two costs stress resources that return with a short rest. Usage at one level above uses double the resources and those resources don't return until a long rest. Usage at two levels above cost the same as one level above, but require a saving throw, a failure which exhausts all resources until a long rest (leaving at will use probable just for playability purposes).

This is close to how powers work in Green Ronin's Blue Rose (both in True 20 and AGE). You are rolling a check against a DC to either cast or to avoid fatigue. But powers in Blue Rose (or True 20) are generally not as universe-shaking as what one can find in D&D as it hews closer to magic in Romantic Fantasy, which is a genre with a number of characters utilizing psychic or empathic abilities.

Similarly, Stars Without Number has a Psychic class. It uses a skill system, but with each Psionic discipline being a separate skill. Going further into your skill training unlocks access to further psionic techniques in that discipline. Psionic powers are fueled by Effort, which may require committing for as long as the power is active, the scene, or a day, etc.

 

[Hussar]

But, you're not really countering my point, @Scars Unseen. None of what you're talking about can't be done with the existing magic system. What you've just listed is pretty much a warlock with the ability to upcast spells over and above the usual limit by level.

IOW, why do I need a, for example, proficiency based casting system like 2e, in order to achieve what you're talking about? Why can't simply "Spells Known" and a daily/short rest limit cover things?

I guess my question is, what is your new system? You've talked about effects, but, not mechanics.