D&D General Are NPCs like PCs?

[Sacrosanct]

So, again, NOT using the PC rules. As that's an NPC class, never minding that it appears several YEARS after the release of the Monster Manual. How were the bandits in OD&D possibly being used for about a decade before that Dragon Magazine was released?

Man what? Those classes in Dragon were built exactly the same way as PC classes in the PHB. What are you talking about now?

And I'm using the definition of NPC as it appeared in the rules. Non Player Characters. Monsters are not Non Player Characters. There's a whole freaking section on what NPCs are, and how to flesh them out.

You know what, forget it. If I'm at the point where I have the explain what the definitions of NPC and Hit Dice are to someone who says they know 1e, then I'm wasting my time.

 

[Hussar]

No, humanoids. Which are more than just demi-human or human. Can you please read what I'm writing? You might be less worked up if you do.

She's 16 hit dice. Which I shouldn't have to explain to you if you really did play 1e what that means.

But humanoids DON'T USE THE PC RULES. You said it yourself that they use NPC classes, or the shaman class (again, something that is referenced like what, once in the entire body of AD&D and never actually used in play) and they can break the PC rules whenever they feel like it.

 

[Lanefan]

Another thing i want to address: some people are drawing a very stark distinction between NPC types and Monster types. This is an unnecessary distinction to me. IMO only the PCs need to be considered classed and leveled entities because the rules do not represent any sort of laws of nature or exacting description of the world.

If the rules don't represent those things then what does? Something has to.

 

[Hussar]

No, humanoids. Which are more than just demi-human or human. Can you please read what I'm writing? You might be less worked up if you do.

She's 16 hit dice. Which I shouldn't have to explain to you if you really did play 1e what that means.

If she's 16 hit dice, then why is she only a 14th level MU? That's not right. That doesn't follow the PC rules.

But hey, keep feeling free to take cheap shots pretending I don't know the game. After all, you've repeatedly contradicted yourself. I don't really have to do anything.

 

[Lanefan]

Me as the DM: "You cannot comprehend the true nature of this spell"

Me as the player: "Oh yeah? Hold my beer..."

 

[Reynard]

If the rules don't represent those things then what does? Something has to.

Why? It's a game. The rules represent play. I mean, 5 foot squares alone should be enough to illustrate that everything is abstract. The group as a whole at the table decides what "reality" is in the game. Sometimes that might line up with the rules but it doesn't have to. The rules are just the interface and the participants decide when to use that interface and when not to.

 

[Hussar]

If the rules don't represent those things then what does? Something has to.

Yeah, this I think is the main point of breaking here.

5e defines NPC's as ANYTHING that's not a PC. The notion of a third type - Monster - doesn't exist in 5e and hasn't existed since 3e at the least. I can't remember how 2e defined things.

But, it does explain the confusion. Of course, funny how we're talking about things appearing in Dragon magazine, but, ignoring the fact that many monsters were given PC treatments in the same pages. I'd argue that the distinction is nowhere near as clear as it's being made out to be.

 

[Faolyn]

Oh gods no. Different rules and treatments. It makes it so much easier to make NPCs when you can make them however you like without worrying about what the rules are like.

 

[Lanefan]

I prefer that NPCs model the same fiction as PCs, but I don’t think they need to use the same rules to do it. What I mean by that is, an NPC wizard should feel like a PC wizard. They don’t necessarily need to use the same spellcasting mechanics, because a lot of stuff in the rules for the PC class is irrelevant for an NPC - I as DM don’t need a full spellbook with a bunch of spells the NPC will never use, and a subset of those that are prepared, fueled by spell slots that recover on a long rest.

Except you do need that full spellbook info because sure as shootin' if you don't have it the PCs will go out of their way to find said book.

I hit this often: if I list out the whole book in my notes the PCs will miss the book or blow it up or otherwise never see it; but if I don't list it out then it's guaranteed the PCs will not only find it but immediately want to know what's in it right now! rather than waiting till they get back to town.

This character is probably only going to be alive for three rounds of combat, I just need to know what he can do in that time. However, I still want the NPC wizard’s spellcasting mechanics to reflect the same reality as the PC wizard. If the PC’s fireball spell is resisted by satyrs and can be countered by counterspell, so should the NPC’s fiery blast ability be, even though it isn’t cast with a spell slot.

Agreed completely.

Likewise, I don’t really mind PC orcs only being able to dash as a bonus action PB times per long rest, while NPC orcs can do it at-will. As long as they’re both modeling the orcish burst of speed in combat, I’m cool with the specifics varying. But it bugs the hell out of me that NPC orcs have sunlight sensitivity but PC orcs don’t. If orcs are sensitive to sunlight, they should be sensitive to sunlight; doesn’t matter if the orc is a PC or an NPC. I don’t mind if the specific mechanics reflecting that sensitivity are different, but both should model it in some way, otherwise they don’t feel like they’re modeling the same creature.

I go a step farther and say they should be the same, which means either PC Orcs have to gain that sensitivity or NPC Orcs have to lose it.

 

[Sacrosanct]

But humanoids DON'T USE THE PC RULES. You said it yourself that they use NPC classes, or the shaman class (again, something that is referenced like what, once in the entire body of AD&D and never actually used in play) and they can break the PC rules whenever they feel like it.

One last thing for clarification since you seem to be misrepresenting what I said. When I said they were NPC classes, that means they were designed to be used as NPCs, not by the players themselves (that didn't stop people from playing them though). That does not mean they use different rules than PC classes. They are literally built on the same ruleset as every other PC class. That's not contradicting myself.

Secondly, it is absolutely false (and pretty ridiculous) to claim that humanoids given class levels for shamans or witch doctors only appeared once in the entire body of AD&D. They are literally given PC class levels, and guess what? DMs used the PC class rules to run those NPCs.

If she's 16 hit dice, then why is she only a 14th level MU? That's not right. That doesn't follow the PC rules.

But hey, keep feeling free to take cheap shots pretending I don't know the game. After all, you've repeatedly contradicted yourself. I don't really have to do anything.

If you have to keep quoting the same post multiple times, I think you probably need to step back and take a breather. I'm not taking cheap shots, I'm pointing out how you seem to claim a position of authority here based on your experience, and yet I have to explain basic 1e concepts to you. Like what the definition of an NPC is.

By your logic, players and DMs would never be able to play the game, because they wouldn't know what to do when they saw a creature listed as "casting a fireball at 20th level" and no other rules were immediately following. I mean, if they aren't using PC rules, then how would anyone know how to cast a fireball at 20th level and what it did? I think most of us can agree that's a pretty silly position to take.

5e defines NPC's as ANYTHING that's not a PC. The notion of a third type - Monster - doesn't exist in 5e and hasn't existed since 3e at the least.

Once again, this is demonstratably false. 5e defines NPCs as:

A nonplayer character is any character controlled by the Dungeon Master. NPCs can be enemies or allies, regular folk or named monsters.

It's not anything that's not a PC. Monsters do exist. Only named ones are considered NPCs.