D&D General Are NPCs like PCs?

[Cadence]

What class was a Death Knight? And how come it can cast a Fireball while wearing Plate Mail?

It's a form of a Lich. So a monster and not an NPC in the way 1e did things.

 

[Sacrosanct]

10th level Fighter, weren't they? (or was it 12th, too lazy to look it up right now)

And it's not "casting" Fireball. There's no hand-waving or casting time or components etc., it just points and shoots* as an innate ability and the effect generated just happens to work the same as a high-gas fireball.

* - or the fireball-ish effect comes from its eyes as a gaze feature? been a long time since I've run one of these....

9th level paladin. Technically, it has 9 hit dice (which in AD&D for those that don't know, Hit Dice were pretty much levels in equivalence), but noted it used a d10 (what a paladin uses). So it's pretty clear a death knight was a 9th level paladin who was corrupted and fallen, and turned undead, with a casting ability of a 20th level caster, as per:

Where appropriate, a death knight's magic use is at the 20th
experience level.

Which again, is an example tying abilities to class levels...

 

[Hussar]

So, let's get right down to it - how are you, @Helldritch and @Sacrosanct defining NPC? Because, AFAIK, we're just talking past each other. I'm saying that the NPC rules didn't invoke the PC rules unless the NPC in question was a human or humanoid. @Helldritch originally claimed that all NPC's follow PC rules and @Sacrosanct apparently agrees with that.

So, how do you define an NPC?

 

[Hussar]

or the Bandit class itself, as it appeared in Dragon #63 from 1982

So, again, NOT using the PC rules. As that's an NPC class, never minding that it appears several YEARS after the release of the Monster Manual. How were the bandits in OD&D possibly being used for about a decade before that Dragon Magazine was released?

 

[Reynard]

Agreed.

But if it's instead casting "charm missile" and "magic person" as arcane spells then for consistency it's studying them from a book* and that book has to be around there somewhere; and if the PCs find and decipher said book then those spells become part of the setting.

* - or other surface that can be written on: I once has a vampire caster whose "spellbook" was written on the inside walls of the crypt it lived in.

I am at once okay with that "spellbook" being incomprehensible garbage to the PC wizard AND letting the PC wizard decide charm missile was a cool spell and they are going to create it themselves. Same with the Battlemaster after going up against the warriors of the School of Eagle Fang. But the key is the PCs have to develop these things in a way that fits their PC abilities (appropriate spell levels or whatever). The bad guy absolutely does not.

 

[Lanefan]

Is there?

In my view, yes: to me the term "NPC" generally describes anything that could be a PC but at the moment isn't. So, any non-PC Elf you meet is an NPC because Elves can be PCs. If you meet a friendly Ogre it's still a "monster" because Ogres can't be played as PCs, though many would call it an NPC as well.

For my part, when I say PCs and NPCs should use the same rules I'm specifically referring to cases where the PC and NPC share a species, a class, or both. The Lich Magic-User shares a class with PCs and therefore should be using the same rules for that class as do PCs; its innate Lich-ly abilities are different and don't factor in here*. The Elf NPC and the Elf PC share a species and therefore should be using the same rules regarding that species.

* - and even there provision exists for a PC eventually becoming a Lich and acquiring those abilities; provided said PC is willing to spend the great amounts of time, resources, and other costs to do so.

 

[Hussar]

It's a form of a Lich. So a monster and not an NPC in the way 1e did things.

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So, you're in the camp that NPC=human/Demi-human. Only playable races?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Again, only humans and demi-humans.

Unless we are arguing that NPC=human/demi-human, all these asides really don't matter.

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No, humanoids. Which are more than just demi-human or human. Can you please read what I'm writing? You might be less worked up if you do.

@Sacrosanct - reread what you just posted.
"
In her
humanoid shape, Lolth is a 16th level cleric/l4th level magic-user"

Now, reread the picture you posted. "As a giant spider..."

You were saying? One of us needs to read the source material, and I'm thinking it's not me.

She's 16 hit dice. Which I shouldn't have to explain to you if you really did play 1e what that means.

 

[Hussar]

9th level paladin. Technically, it has 9 hit dice (which in AD&D for those that don't know, Hit Dice were pretty much levels in equivalence), but noted it used a d10 (what a paladin uses). So it's pretty clear a death knight was a 9th level paladin who was corrupted and fallen, and turned undead, with a casting ability of a 20th level caster, as per:



Which again, is an example tying abilities to class levels...

And, again, a perfect example of how NPC's DIDN'T use PC rules. Since it would be impossible for a paladin to cast fireball, impossible to be 20th level and only have 9 HD and impossible for the NPC to do that while wearing armor.

 

[Cadence]

Unless we are arguing that NPC=human/demi-human, all these asides really don't matter.

So, you're in the camp that NPC=human/Demi-human. Only playable races?

I think 1e D&D was focused on demi-humans for the character races (PC or NPC) and that carries over, for the most part, in the MM. In it, Gnomes are described as having leaders with classes and levels, and gnolls and goblins weren't. Sahuagin are given priests with class level (gnolls and goblins aren't mentioned as having any) but their leading combat types aren't.

If I were making the game (say 6e), I'd try to make it where anything that could be a PC was treated that way whether PC or NPC. I wouldn't bother stat-ing them all the way out if it didn't seem relevant.