D&D 5E Rime of the Frostmaiden Post-Mortem (Spoilers)

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
We go to the Duergar stronghold and saw the Dragon leave to ravage the Ten Towns. We figured we could get inside and call it back.... yeah you cant do that. So by the time we got out of there Ten Towns was like Five Towns.

Of course how are we supposed to fight a dragon? So we held up at the final town and rallied the troops and fought it.

Long story short, Ten Towns was now One Town.

Oops? Apparently as soon as the Dragon was out and about we should have gone and fought it. I felt we were to weak to fight a Dragon and the obvious choice was to recall it and if forced to fight it do it with a lot of NPCs.

Honestly had I been DMing it I think I would have added a "recall device" in the Duergar stronghold and had us fight it there...
 
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Werehamster

Villager
That's great. I don't consider my preferences the sole taste of D&D. With the way most of the adventure content from Wizards of the Coast has failed to connect with me, I'm finally realizing that my preferences don't line up with the majority of D&D players.

It's a sort of bad spot to be in, honestly. When I'm not interested in the bulk of the official content, it feels like the hobby has moved on from me. Like if most D&D customers are getting excited about an adventure that can be won by hugging unicorns and befriending cuddly baby displacers (the newest Feywild adventure), I have to just enjoy what is there from the past and make my own fun.
Have you explored the non-WoTC content much? GM's Guild etc come to mind. There are some very highly acclaimed creators on there among other resources. Just curious if you've had any luck with those and your personal preferences.
 

MarkB

Legend
We go to the Duergar stronghold and saw the Dragon leave to ravage the Ten Towns. We figured we could get inside and call it back.... yeah you cant do that. So by the time we got out of there Ten Towns was like Five Towns.

Of course how are we supposed to fight a dragon? So we held up at the final town and rallied the troops and fought it.

Long story short, Ten Towns was now One Town.

Oops? Apparently as soon as the Dragon was out and about we should have gone and fought it. I felt we were to weak to fit a Dragon and the obvious choice was to recall it and if forced to fight it do it with a lot of NPCs.

Honestly had I been DMing it I think I would have added a "recall device" in the Duergar stronghold and had us fight it there...
No, you're expected to still go into the fortress. The dragon has enough of a head start that even if you pursue it immediately, your changes of intercepting it before it's hit several towns are minimal.

The main thing you get from the fort is its flightpath. That lets you know where you can get to in order to make your stand.
 

lluewhyn

Explorer
No, you're expected to still go into the fortress. The dragon has enough of a head start that even if you pursue it immediately, your changes of intercepting it before it's hit several towns are minimal.

The main thing you get from the fort is its flightpath. That lets you know where you can get to in order to make your stand.
That would make logical sense and is basically how I'm intending to run it, but I think that answer is technically wrong as far as how it's written since the adventure really tries to sell it as you can do Option A OR Option B, because the "PCs have to see that their choices have consequences". While it does allow you to do the fort first, the end result is that there will be a lot more destruction as written due to lost time.

Even though Option A makes no sense for the information that the PCs have at the time.
DM: "So, let me make sure I have this straight. You're going to turn around abruptly from your goal to chase after a creature that not only can travel at least six times faster than you, can fly in a straight line as opposed to having to follow along twisty paths, and also doesn't have to worry about the blizzards and avalanches you've regularly encountered in your travels. You don't know where it's going or what it's going to do, nor even what it is other than it looks like a dragon. You don't know how powerful it is or whether you can beat it, and odds are that since the various towns can raise dozens to hundreds of their residents as trained militia you deciding to confront it probably won't sway the needle either way if it attacks a town."
Players: "I guess"
DM:........."You have made the correct choice."

And this is why I'm going to change how this section plays out.
 
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MarkB

Legend
That would make logical sense and is basically how I'm intending to run it, but I think that answer is technically wrong as far as how it's written since the adventure really tries to sell it as you can do Option A OR Option B, because the "PCs have to see that their choices have consequences". While it does allow you to do the fort first, the end result is that there will be a lot more destruction as written due to lost time.

Even though Option A makes no sense for the information that the PCs have at the time.
DM: "So, let me make sure I have this straight. You're going to turn around abruptly from your goal to chase after a creature that not only can travel at least six times faster than you, can fly in a straight line as opposed to having to follow along twisty paths, and also doesn't have to worry about the blizzards and avalanches you've regularly encountered in your travels. You don't know where it's going or what it's going to do, nor even what it is other than it looks like a dragon. You don't know how powerful it is or whether you can beat it, and odds are that since the various towns can raise dozens to hundreds of their residents as trained militia you're deciding to confront it probably won't sway the needle either way if it attacks a town."
Players: "I guess"
DM:........."You have made the correct choice.

And this is why I'm going to change how this section plays out.
Good move. It is a rather awkward story beat.
 

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
That would make logical sense and is basically how I'm intending to run it, but I think that answer is technically wrong as far as how it's written since the adventure really tries to sell it as you can do Option A OR Option B, because the "PCs have to see that their choices have consequences". While it does allow you to do the fort first, the end result is that there will be a lot more destruction as written due to lost time.

Even though Option A makes no sense for the information that the PCs have at the time.
DM: "So, let me make sure I have this straight. You're going to turn around abruptly from your goal to chase after a creature that not only can travel at least six times faster than you, can fly in a straight line as opposed to having to follow along twisty paths, and also doesn't have to worry about the blizzards and avalanches you've regularly encountered in your travels. You don't know where it's going or what it's going to do, nor even what it is other than it looks like a dragon. You don't know how powerful it is or whether you can beat it, and odds are that since the various towns can raise dozens to hundreds of their residents as trained militia you're deciding to confront it probably won't sway the needle either way if it attacks a town."
Players: "I guess"
DM:........."You have made the correct choice.

And this is why I'm going to change how this section plays out.
Yeah this is pretty much it.

"We can't fight it, must be a way to call it back."

Really at no point did I feel like we were supposed to fight it alone, until we pretty much had no other option.
 

Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
Supporter
That would make logical sense and is basically how I'm intending to run it, but I think that answer is technically wrong as far as how it's written since the adventure really tries to sell it as you can do Option A OR Option B, because the "PCs have to see that their choices have consequences". While it does allow you to do the fort first, the end result is that there will be a lot more destruction as written due to lost time.

Even though Option A makes no sense for the information that the PCs have at the time.
DM: "So, let me make sure I have this straight. You're going to turn around abruptly from your goal to chase after a creature that not only can travel at least six times faster than you, can fly in a straight line as opposed to having to follow along twisty paths, and also doesn't have to worry about the blizzards and avalanches you've regularly encountered in your travels. You don't know where it's going or what it's going to do, nor even what it is other than it looks like a dragon. You don't know how powerful it is or whether you can beat it, and odds are that since the various towns can raise dozens to hundreds of their residents as trained militia you're deciding to confront it probably won't sway the needle either way if it attacks a town."
Players: "I guess"
DM:........."You have made the correct choice.

And this is why I'm going to change how this section plays out.

It's even worse than that.

Based on the travel times laid out in the book, it's literally impossible for the adventurers to save ANY towns except for Bryn Shander, and that's only if they head directly there as soon as they see the dragon fly out. This is contrary to the adventure text, which says that if they head to Bryn Shander first "they will be playing into Xardarok's hands" - false; it's the only way to save any town.

There is a serious lack of editorial oversight going on. The editor should have looked at chapters three and four, looked at the travel times laid out in the opening section of the book, and noticed there was a problem. Furthermore, the attempt to offer the players a dramatic, meaningful choice with consequences fails because the players are not armed with the information they need in order to make that choice. Ideally, the stakes and consequences of the dramatic choice should be clear, and there should be positives and negatives to weigh for both options. Instead, pursuing the dragon immediately is objectively the right choice - there are no negative consequences for doing so, since apparently Xardarok & Co will just sit around in Sunblight waiting for the adventurers to come and kill them. The only "drama" is that the players have to make an ill-informed choice (which really is neither dramatic nor meaningful - they're basically just being ambushed by circumstance).

I suspect that in an early draft, the travel time problems may have been mitigated by Vellyne Harpell having sleds pulled by undead dogs that didn't need to rest, but in play-testing the undead dogs were scrapped because too many players decided that undead dogs = evil NPC, and the adventure really wants them to ally with Harpell. However, no alternative means of fast travelling back to the towns was then substituted, automatically dooming 9/10 towns no matter what the players do, and rendering nonsensical text like "they can stop the dragon before too many towns are destroyed" (how many is "too many", incidentally?) and "playing into Xardarok's hands" by going to Bryn Shander.

So DMs are left to fix this in various ways - some by fixing the travel times to speed up the players or slow down the dragon, some by keeping the dragon in Sunblight until the players reach the forge. Personally, I just had the dragon attack the Ten Towns while the players were IN the Ten Towns - they damaged the dragon in Easthaven after Dougan's Hole and Goodmead were torched, driving it back to Sunblight. Pursuing the dragon back to Sunblight gave them a strong motive to actually go there, as players can otherwise put that off forever since on the face of it Sunblight doesn't look any more or less urgent that any other sidequest, and indeed as written is narratively inert until the players visit it.

My solution had the adventurers fighting Xardarok AND his dragon in the forge, which was a great fight. Yes, they didn't get to make the "dramatic choice" at the beginning of Chapter 3, but that choice is so poorly implemented that you can cut it and nothing of value is lost.

A much better dramatic choice, which the adventure doesn't really touch, is whether or not to stop the human sacrifices. Human sacrifices are bad, but the Sephek Kaltro situation suggests that screwing with them can cause Auril to retaliate. So the question of whether or not to try to stop them is an interesting one for the players, because arguably until the Rime is lifted, the sacrifices are a necessary evil. The adventure is no help in this area though, since it includes zero info about whose idea the sacrifices were in the first place, and who is in charge of them.
 

lluewhyn

Explorer
There is a serious lack of editorial oversight going on. The editor should have looked at chapters three and four, looked at the travel times laid out in the opening section of the book, and noticed there was a problem. Furthermore, the attempt to offer the players a dramatic, meaningful choice with consequences fails because the players are not armed with the information they need in order to make that choice. Ideally, the stakes and consequences of the dramatic choice should be clear, and there should be positives and negatives to weigh for both options.

I think there are just times when the writer (Chris Perkins?) just gets all hyped up about doing some ultra-dramatic thing with consequences for the PCs (oftentimes with railroading) that they're more concerned with pulling off the edgy moment that good storytelling drops by the wayside.

Writer: The Ten-Towns were all destroyed by the dragon because of the choice you made.
PCs: You realize that none of the information presented made chasing the dragon a logical choice?
Writer: I'm sorry, I can't hear you because I'm too busy laughing at the fact that your choices had consequences.

Just like later in the adventure when they are presented with Auril's challenge and any attempt to progress forward through alternative means automatically fails by writer fiat, with the added kicker that any resources used are lost as well (because the writer is pouty, and you WILL face a moral dilemma dangit).

In Curse of Strahd, there's the part where you have a chance to save Ireena and free her from Strahd but the adventure goes out of its way to trick the PCs into making the "wrong" choice, and then rubs it in their faces because now Ireena is doomed forever. Doomed!

In Dragon Heist, there's the explicit text that if the PCs ever get smart and come up with a solution to acquire the macguffin in a way not written, it mind-controls them and forces them to drop it so they can get back on the railroad tracks.

Essentially, whenever some parts of these adventures start taking a more gleeful, snickering and/or railroading approach to forcing the PCs to suffer consequences for some of their "choices", I tend to look at these passages rather cautiously.
 

Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
Supporter
I'm running Dragon Heist now. I can't wait for it to be over.

For the record, I LOVE Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden. One of my very favorite 5E adventures. It has glaring "how did it go to print like this" problems, but they are very fixable and the good stuff in the adventure is very much worth the effort imo.

Dragon Heist is like not even worth fixing. Just don't run it.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
I'm running Dragon Heist now. I can't wait for it to be over.

For the record, I LOVE Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden. One of my very favorite 5E adventures. It has glaring "how did it go to print like this" problems, but they are very fixable and the good stuff in the adventure is very much worth the effort imo.

Dragon Heist is like not even worth fixing. Just don't run it.

I agree. Some people, with a huge amount of work, apparently made it work for them, but for us it was really a horrible adventure, total railroading and not interesting at all, a large part wasted by "replayability" (stupid concept honestly).
 

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