D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[cbwjm]

At what level does the fighter fall noticably behind the wizard in 5e?

I'm less concerned with the fighter dropping behind the wizard than I am with other martial type characters. Paladins gain smite, rangers will often have some sort of damage improvement (hunter's mark or something else), and barbarians have rage. A fighter I feel falls a bit behind until they gain their 3rd attack at level 11. Action surge helps, but it doesn't have enough uses at lower levels to really make up for it. At least, that's how it feels to me when playing one.

 

[Minigiant]

As has been noted, if the fighter is a battle master with the trip maneuver, there is a 30% chance per hit that the devil falls to the ground taking 15d6 falling damage(in addition to arrow damage) and allowing the fighter to get up on it the next round.

The fighter without any magic items does better against the devil than full casters.

The devil takes as much damage as high it is up.

It can fly 1foot off the ground and take 1d6 falling damage. It still can be anywhere up to 150 feet away. On it's turn, the horned devil stands up for 30ft movement and can kite backwards for another 30ft .

It has 12 INT and 16 WIS. Tripping the fast flying smart devil only works in enclosed spaces because WOTC and D&D fans want supernaturally overpowered monsters.

 

[Maxperson]

The devil takes as much damage as high it is up.

It can fly 1foot off the ground and take 1d6 falling damage. It still can be anywhere up to 150 feet away. On it's turn, the horned devil stands up for 30ft movement and can kite backwards for another 30ft .

It has 12 INT and 16 WIS. Tripping the fast flying smart devil only works in enclosed spaces because WOTC and D&D fans want supernaturally overpowered monsters.

No. It IS it's turn, so it's prone and has moved which is why it got shot. If it's that close to the ground, then one of the other party members(maybe more than one) dimension doors or something close to it and it no longer has distance, and has to stand up using half it's movement. The fighter can if he wants move and dash closing the gap by 30 feet, since the devil only gets to move 30.

Regardless, the fighter is still more effective than the casters whose spells are out of range. And without magic items.

 

[Minigiant]

No. It IS it's turn, so it's prone and has moved which is why it got shot. If it's that close to the ground, then one of the other party members(maybe more than one) dimension doors or something close to it and it no longer has distance, and has to stand up using half it's movement. The fighter can if he wants move and dash closing the gap by 30 feet, since the devil only gets to move 30.

Regardless, the fighter is still more effective than the casters whose spells are out of range. And without magic items.

The devil can still be several dozen feet away even after tripped and the fighter runs to it,

And if the fighter does get teleported close, he better not miss the opportunity attack or the devil can fly away again.

My point was never that the fighter is worse than casters at fighting mid and high level monsters.

My point was those monsters are so powerful that without specific types of magic equipment, the fighter can't deal with them. And even worse, it is often as an bad option to buff the fighter with spells as a replacement for said items as engaging the monster with spells directly with magic that mitigates or removes their brokenness.

So DMs are forced to play dumb or tilt the battleground to make the fighter matter.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Part of your turn is in fact your turn. It can't be anyone elses.

You are, by the very definition of using your reaction to take your action via Ready, is on another creature's turn. It isn't your turn. You can only take part of your turn--not the entire thing. Your moment has passed by and on your turn you took the Ready action, otherwise when did you take it??

So, you aren't taking the Attack action on your turn, which is a requirement for Extra Attack, you are taking the Ready action to attack, so you only get one attack.

Again, you can certainly play it however you want, but one piece of SA, which is only a general piece of advice instead of specifically talking about Ready and Extra Attack, against every other instance I can find isn't going to convince me, especially when the piece you have says you only take part of your turn.

 

[DND_Reborn]

At what level does the fighter fall noticably behind the wizard in 5e?

I think for most people around 12th probably, but some seemed to imply much sooner (as soon as 5th or lower really).

It depends on how much you think lower level spells are noticeably stronger than what fighters can do.

 

[Maxperson]

The devil can still be several dozen feet away even after tripped and the fighter runs to it,

And if the fighter does get teleported close, he better not miss the opportunity attack or the devil can fly away again.

My point was never that the fighter is worse than casters at fighting mid and high level monsters.

It seemed that way from the conversation. Anyway, once the devil falls and his move is done, the fighter on his next turn moves 60 feet and fires 6 times. He doesn't need to ready an action that turn and has action surge.

My point was those monsters are so powerful that without specific types of magic equipment, the fighter can't deal with them

All it takes is a bow and any fighter worth a grain of salt has a long bow and a melee weapon.

And even worse, it is often as an bad option to buff the fighter with spells as a replacement for said items as engaging the monster with spells directly with magic that mitigates or removes their brokenness.

Buffs may or may not allow the fighter to do even better with his bow, depending on what they are. In no case are they a replacement for items since the fighter doesn't need or want a replacement for his long bow.

So DMs are forced to play dumb or tilt the battleground to make the fighter matter.

Or the fighter shoots it and knocks it prone, allowing the casters to get within range and hit it hard with spells. The fighter, with no magic items, is the star of the fight.

 

[Maxperson]

You are, by the very definition of using your reaction to take your action via Ready, is on another creature's turn. It isn't your turn.

Specific beats general. You are interrupting to take the rest of your turn, so it's your turn and then switches back to the enemy.

You can only take part of your turn--not the entire thing. Your moment has passed by and on your turn you took the Ready action, otherwise when did you take it??

Part of your turn is still on your turn. Extra attack doesn't say that you need your entire turn, only that it be on your turn and the Sage Advice was very specific about readied actions being part of your turn.

 

[Minigiant]

You are, by the very definition of using your reaction to take your action via Ready, is on another creature's turn. It isn't your turn. You can only take part of your turn--not the entire thing. Your moment has passed by and on your turn you took the Ready action, otherwise when did you take it??

So, you aren't taking the Attack action on your turn, which is a requirement for Extra Attack, you are taking the Ready action to attack, so you only get one attack.

Again, you can certainly play it however you want, but one piece of SA, which is only a general piece of advice instead of specifically talking about Ready and Extra Attack, against every other instance I can find isn't going to convince me, especially when the piece you have says you only take part of your turn.

Ready in multiple attacks could have easily been a level 10+ fighter class feature.

Part of the fighter's problemis that post level 9, it doesn't get any new base class features. Just more uses of the low level features. This was the issue in other editions as well.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Specific beats general. You are interrupting to take the rest of your turn, so it's your turn and then switches back to the enemy.

Part of your turn is still on your turn. Extra attack doesn't say that you need your entire turn, only that it be on your turn and the Sage Advice was very specific about readied actions being part of your turn.

Every piece of SA on this says you can't use Extra Attack via the Ready action on another creature's turn. That is Specific, not General. Your one piece of SA is about the General use of Ready action to act later. You have it backwards. I'm not arguing this with you further. I know you probably won't let this drop, but I will.

Ready in multiple attacks could have easily been a level 10+ fighter class feature.

It certainly could have been and would have fit the fighter class nicely IMO. This would be a specific case of Extra Attack with Ready action over the general use of Extra Attack with Ready Action.

Part of the fighter's problemis that post level 9, it doesn't get any new base class features. Just more uses of the low level features. This was the issue in other editions as well.

Sure, I agree with that as well. Getting more uses of a feature isn't very inspired IMO. Even an improvement on Indomitable would have been nice, such as instead of rerolling a failed save, you automatically succeed on it.