D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Yaarel]

Here ya go.

D&D General - Poll: How tough should 20th Level Fighters be? (MCU edition)

So, in another thread, the great debate rages between whether the Quadratic Wizard vs. Linear Fighters fault is more Dr. Strange's fault or more Bucky's. Since Strange keeps using his time powers to wipe out attempts to vote about how over-powered he is, lets go to the other side. Where do...

www.enworld.org

According to that poll, there is a spike in the number of enworlders who want the level 20 Fighter to be "Black Panther / Captain America".

However, in my eyes, both them are roughly a level 10 Fighter, including the Strength 20.

The desired model is logically impossible for a game that goes beyond level 10 upto level 20, and even higher into epic levels.

 

[Mort]

Agree! Other than helping their defense, most magic items are for casting more spells. While this increases the frequency of usefulness, it doesn't increase power IMO. Also, most spells that items can cast aren't of the real "game changing" nature since they aren't 6th+ level spells.

This REALLY depends.

for example, the staff of defense is available at relatively low level in a published adventure (around 5th),

Spoiler

available in the mines of Phandelver adventure and wherever else DMs choose to put it

.

10 charges: mage armor costs 1 charge, shield costs 2. So a wizard (or sorcerer) can dramatically buff his AC with no personal expenditure. Sure it's "for defense" but it saves a bunch of spell slots the wizard would have otherwise expened for other uses - that increases power and versatility.

 

[Yaarel]

I think it's more bizarre to expect every game to completely change sub-genres of fantasy throughout the campaign than it is for people wanting to play a specific sub-genre to be able to do so throughout the full range of levels.

Again, it just seems completely dismissive to tell people that they only get to play with half the game if they don't want to play supers and demi-gods.

If a "solution" is to destroy all of the high level caster classes, then that itself destroys half of the game for the players who like the other half that has the high-level magic.

 

[DND_Reborn]

that increases power and versatility.

It isn't anything the wizard can't already do... which by my definition at least is not an increase is power. Versatility certainly.

But for fighters, many magic items allow them to do things they can't otherwise do, which is an increase in power.

That is just how I see it.

 

[Scars Unseen]

If a "solution" is to destroy all of the high level caster classes, then that itself destroys half of the game for the players who like the other half that has the high-level magic.

The solution I proposed in the conversation that quote if from (context, yay!) did no such thing. It was about categorizing abilities, spells included, so that those who want more fantastical martials could have them without taking away from those who don't and those who want less universally powerful casters can have those without taking away from those who do.

 

[Mort]

According to that poll, there is a spike in the number of enworlders who want the level 20 Fighter to be "Black Panther / Captain America".

However, in my eyes, both them are roughly a level 10 Fighter, including the Strength 20.

The desired model is logically impossible for a game that goes beyond level 10 upto level 20, and even higher into epic levels.

This is, IMO, the biggest divide between casters and martials (especially fighters).

D&D Casters are largely a D&D creation. sure they have some basis in stories and myth - but, especially at this point, they're their own thing. People generally agree what a D&D Wizard (or cleric or bard) is (whether they like it is a separate question).

Fighters, on the other hand, are FAR from agreed upon. Some players want Joe Schmoe just trying to survive, some want Captain America/Black Widow and some want Gilgamesh/Achilles etc. Exactly what a fighter is has never quite solidified into a general consensus. And that makes designing for them REALLY hard.

 

[Aldarc]

If a "solution" is to destroy all of the high level caster classes, then that itself destroys half of the game for the players who like the other half that has the high-level magic.

A lot of high level magic already destroys the game for a fair amount of people.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And that makes designing for them REALLY hard.

So they shout 'Simple! Starter Character!' and just... don't.

 

[Mort]

It isn't anything the wizard can't already do... which by my definition at least is not an increase is power. Versatility certainly.

But for fighters, many magic items allow them to do things they can't otherwise do, which is an increase in power.

That is just how I see it.

See, to me, that definition is limiting. Fighters have a VERY specific ability set. Giving them items that increase that ability set is easy, because just about anything does.

Wizards have a very, very broad ability set when spellcasting. The limitation is that they have a limited use of those abilities.

When you give them items that allow them to conserve the spellcasting resource (especially when it's something REALLY common like shield which would otherwise draw a lot of resources) you are not just increasing versatility - you are increasing power because the Wizard is free to expend a much larger amount of his otherwise precious resources.

 

[Maxperson]

damage cantrips can deal equal or more damage if the target isn't resistant or immune.

No cantrip goes 150 feet.