D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[DND_Reborn]

I don't want to turn HD into action points, or have PCs want to save them during rests because they might need them for class function.

Sure, it isn't for everyone. We do some thing already and like them. Our style is grittier, so keeping HD in reserve is par for the course.

That said, a feat or two where you can use hd in a limited capacity for a new action (like using a HD to auto stabilize or sacrificing one to add Necrotic damage to an attack as blood magic) would be an interesting design space.

If that works better for you, that's cool, too.

 

[Aldarc]

It still takes time, but if the characters have the time this becomes irrelevant (no change there from 4e); and they can't always be on a clock.

I'm not sure about the money part.

IMHO, what I liked about 4e rituals wasn't just how it did them - it required time, skill checks, expenditure of material components or wealth, and sometimes other people expending their healing surges - but also the usual spells that existed exclusively in ritual form. A wizard could still do extraordinary and reality re-defining things, but there was a limit to how much they could do it in combat or even how readily they could do it out of combat too. I would personally prefer a greater distinction between magical spells and magical rituals.

 

[Remathilis]

That would be an interesting design change.

Many of the problems that come up are due to a weak base class that subclasses have to compensate for (It's the MAIN problem for ex. with rangers and monks) and most failing to do so. Many problems could be fixed by addressing this issue.

That said, by all indications (at least that I've seen and that are publicly available) the "basic" champion fighter is (by a decent margin) the most popular class. By WoTCs math, why would they tamper with something that's working! They might in an unofficial or variant way (such as through their monthlyish web releases) but officially - it's unlikely.

I don't trust DnDBeyond's numbers on that: champion fighters are the only free subclass on the platform and if you haven't bought the PHB, it's the only option you have. I wager the same thing is true about the evoker wizard, life cleric and thief rogue. I seem to recall a while ago that Matt Mercer's gunslinger was more popular than all the Xanathar subs too, probably again due to it's free status rather than an uptick in pistol-packing fighters.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Champion get shoved down the throat of every newbie too.

 

[Maxperson]

hidus laughter can stop an enemy in there tracks at 20th level or 1st

1. Assuming the creature fails it's save. 2. Assuming you have any slots left. If you're burning through slots using shield, you probably don't have any left after 3.5 encounters. 3. You're assuming this isn't a legendary creature, which is a poor assumption at those CRs. They get to auto save against things like this.

shield can negate a hit at 20th level or 1st

Okay. So you're burning through your low level slots during those first 3.5 encounters as well.

charm person can turn an encounter at 1st or 20th level...

Charm Person is weak sauce if the DM plays it properly. At best, you can, if you get lucky and it misses its save, force a draw where the party gets no exp or treasure. Um, yay. And that's if you have any slots left after all the shield spells you cast.

blur grants disadvantage on attacks. that is a 2nd level spell

Cool. Another spell you're burning through in the first 3.5 fights. This is not a reaction like shield, so you've used 40% of your remaining slots(including 1 3rd level slot) defensively, limiting the number of attempts at shield, charm and tashas's.

counterspell dispel haste fireball lightningbolt are all3rd level spells and all helpful the entire campaign

You have 3 third level slots. If you are using counterspell, you are likely out of the remaining 2 3rd level slots in the first 3.5 fights.

you are NEVER a subpar fighter reread what I wrote. the damn SoS 1st level spell can be used at will at 20th level. (17th I think)

With all the nova you are doing, you will have your signature spells and that's it by the end of 4 fights. So 1 first, 1 second, and cantrips. Hoping and praying that a CR 20+ creature fails a save, because every round it succeeds is a round that you are useless in the fight.

lol SO you just assume those umpteen high level spells are cast first? what if the first round of every encounter you use a cantrip while you plan what big shanangins spell you will end the encounter with> the fact that 5% of the time you have to defualt to doing half the damage of the fighter is meaningless when 80% of the time you can be doing better (other 15% is about equal)

If the first round you use a cantrip, you've fallen behind the fighter that fight. 5e isn't 1e, 2e and 3e. There really are not a lot of encounter ending spells, and saves at that level are likely to be made, not missed. Most of the encounter turning spells will just mean 1 round of you being useless, since there's little to no effect if a save is made.

damage causeing spells are on average slightly worse at 1st and 2nd level then cantrips... but you can load up with charm, laughter, blur, and shield

 

[Remathilis]

Champion get shoved down the throat of every newbie too.

I had two new players join in the 5e era. First one played a bard and the second a warlock. I got nothing against a simpler fighter option, but I would still like the champion to have a little more meat to it. B

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I had two new players join in the 5e era. First one played a bard and the second a warlock. I got nothing against a simpler fighter option, but I would still like the champion to have a little more meat to it. B

I think the champion is a fine concept, the execution just is underwhelming. It should be the perfect athlete that becomes a mythic superathlete in higher levels. It's the subclass for mighty feats of strength and other epic athletic accomplishments.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I don't trust DnDBeyond's numbers on that: champion fighters are the only free subclass on the platform and if you haven't bought the PHB, it's the only option you have. I wager the same thing is true about the evoker wizard, life cleric and thief rogue. I seem to recall a while ago that Matt Mercer's gunslinger was more popular than all the Xanathar subs too, probably again due to it's free status rather than an uptick in pistol-packing fighters.

They have controlled-for numbers as well - if you only count people with paid accounts, champion still outnumbers battlemaster (though not by a lot) and it's worth noting evoker, thief and cleric in general fall off the top spot in that set of numbers.

 

[Cadence]

They have controlled-for numbers as well - if you only count people with paid accounts, champion still outnumbers battlemaster (though not by a lot) and it's worth noting evoker, thief and cleric in general fall off the top spot in that set of numbers.

Thanks for the info. Do you have the link to that? I'd love to see where everything falls with the various subclasses. (Or was it just a summary tweet somewhere?).

 

[jmartkdr2]

Thanks for the info. Do you have the link to that? I'd love to see where everything falls with the various subclasses. (Or was it just a summary tweet somewhere?).

This is the one I was thinking of:
But it's a few years old, I should look for newer numbers.