D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[Lanefan]

But ppint is that the DMG tells you to determine the type of weapon or do it randomly. However to my knowledge there no table to roll for weapons. So it's up to the DM to screw over the Fighter.

If you are a greatweapon fighter and your DM gives you a +1 sickle, the 100% on the DM.

Blame to which I would, if in this situation, proudly claim ownership.

The treasure in any adventure, be it homebrew or pre-published, is determined and placed long before any characters get there and without prior knowledge of (or caring about!) who-what those characters might be at the time.

So if you're a 2-handed-sword user and the magic weapons in the treasury consist of a +0 flametongue mace, a +0 shortbow of double range, and a +1 sickle, then so be it: you're SOL. Take that stuff back to town and hope you can trade it in on an enchanted greatsword.

Maybe the next party I run this adventure for will happen to have an archer and a mace-wielder in it. Maybe not. Again, so be it.

 

[Minigiant]

They don't have to. They can still suggest random to the DM and let the DM figure out the method. The lack of a table doesn't mean that the game doesn't want random to be a thing.

Of course. The DM can pick randomly.

The point is the DMG gives the option of the DM being in the Fighter's corner.
The DMG is actively biased against wizards itemwise.

 

[FrogReaver]

Of course. The DM can pick randomly.

The point is the DMG gives the option of the DM being in the Fighter's corner.
The DMG is actively biased against wizards itemwise.

Your premises don't lead to your conclusion.

The point is the DMG gives the option of the DM being in the Wizard's corner.

Replace Fighter with Wizard here. The DM has the option of being in the Wizard's corner (via never giving a fighter a magic item of a type that fits his build). As long as this is true then the DMG isn't actively biased against either class for giving the DM the ability to choose.

 

[tetrasodium]

Your premises don't lead to your conclusion.


The DM has the option of being in the Wizard's corner (via never giving a fighter a magic item of a type that fits his build). As long as this is true then the DMG isn't actively biased against either class for giving the DM the ability to choose.

I'm fairly certain that @Minigiant is referencing this bias...

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm fairly certain that @Minigiant is referencing this bias...
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That’s 1/2 of our discussion yes. The other bias we are discussing is how is it determined whether that +1 magic weapon is a dagger or a great sword or etc because many fighters use fairly small subsets of all weapons/armorers.

My point is that you don’t get a full picture of whether magic items are biased towards wizards, fighters or neither without accounting for all of this.

 

[Minigiant]

Your premises don't lead to your conclusion.


Replace Fighter with Wizard here. The DM has the option of being in the Wizard's corner (via never giving a fighter a magic item of a type that fits his build). As long as this is true then the DMG isn't actively biased against either class for giving the DM the ability to choose.

You're messing what I'm saying.

The Treasure Tables are actively Pro-Fighter and Anti-Wizard for permanent magic items. The Treasure tables throws a lot of scrolls at wizards but few permanent items. The Treasure Tables also towards Fighters are very permissive and promote letting the DM choose.

Treasure Tables hoses Wizards and boosts Fighters.
Only the DM can hose Fighters, if they want to.

 

[FrogReaver]

You're messing what I'm saying.

The Treasure Tables are actively Pro-Fighter and Anti-Wizard for permanent magic items. The Treasure tables throws a lot of scrolls at wizards but few permanent items. The Treasure Tables also towards Fighters are very permissive and promote letting the DM choose.

Treasure Tables hoses Wizards and boosts Fighters.
Only the DM can hose Fighters, if they want to.

The conclusion that treasure tables are more pro-fighter and anti-wizard doesn’t follow from the correct premise that magic weapons and armorers will drop more than magic rods/staffs/etc and robes. Why? Because what makes treasure pro-fighter is if the treasure dropped is something actually beneficial to the fighter in question, with some thought placed into the question of how beneficial they are. (+1 dagger isn’t very beneficial great sword fighter, If he already has a +1 weapon if any other type it’s essentially useless.)

the game could have 999 +1 daggers drop for every other magic item that drops and that high drop rate for an item usable by a fighter still wouldn’t mean the game is more pro fighter than pro wizard in terms of magic items.

 

[tetrasodium]

That’s 1/2 of our discussion yes. The other bias we are discussing is how is it determined whether that +1 magic weapon is a dagger or a great sword or etc because many fighters use fairly small subsets of all weapons/armorers.

My point is that you don’t get a full picture of whether magic items are biased towards wizards, fighters or neither without accounting for all of this.

That "other bias" is irrelevant because magic weapons are so over represented that even if the GM deliberately houseruled that a fighter must have found a +1/+2/+3 sickle before they are willing to decide that there is a +1 something else the tables themselves overrepresent +1/+2/+3 weapons & named magic weapons compared to +focus items & named focus items to such an extreme degree that the fighter is still in the lead.

As to the idea that a fighter proficient in all weapons could not use a +1 longsword when they specialize in greatswords screwing over a foighter more than casters, that too is incorrect because the fighter still gets to ignore resist nonmagic b/p/s while a wizard who gets a staff of the woodlands & a cleric or druid who gets a staff of the magi is entirely incapable of using them at all.

 

[HammerMan]

The conclusion that treasure tables are more pro-fighter and anti-wizard doesn’t follow from the correct premise that magic weapons and armorers will drop more than magic rods/staffs/etc and robes. Why? Because what makes treasure pro-fighter is if the treasure dropped is something actually beneficial to the fighter in question, with some thought placed into the question of how beneficial they are. (+1 dagger isn’t very beneficial great sword fighter, If he already has a +1 weapon if any other type it’s essentially useless.)

the game could have 999 +1 daggers drop for every other magic item that drops and that high drop rate for an item usable by a fighter still wouldn’t mean the game is more pro fighter than pro wizard in terms of magic items.

I will raise you the craft'sman +1 short swords...

it was years ago, we had a DM throw a bunch of mooks at us and so we all ended up with +1 short swords (for the fighter it was a back up weapon) however the DM kept useing the same stats... orcs, all this stats, hobgoblins these stats, mooks and more mooks, but over the course of about a year of playing the rogue just kept keeping all the +1 short swords, he covered them and put them in a bag of holding... in one city he bought a second bag of holding and we laughed at him...

we took down time of a year somewhere around level 13. We went around the table everyone said what they were doing. get to the rogue and he set up a stall and was selling short swords "Guaranteed for life, if it breaks come back I will give you a new one free of charge." normal short swords sell for 10gp, but these he is selling for 12gp because of the life time warranty. He had almost 2,000 short swords... when we asked why sell +1 short swords so cheap, he said "I'm driving longswords and greatswords out of business"

 

[FrogReaver]

That "other bias" is irrelevant because magic weapons are so over represented that even if the GM deliberately houseruled that a fighter must have found a +1/+2/+3 sickle before they are willing to decide that there is a +1 something else the tables themselves overrepresent +1/+2/+3 weapons & named magic weapons compared to +focus items & named focus items to such an extreme degree that the fighter is still in the lead.

As to the idea that a fighter proficient in all weapons could not use a +1 longsword when they specialize in greatswords screwing over a foighter more than casters, that too is incorrect because the fighter still gets to ignore resist nonmagic b/p/s while a wizard who gets a staff of the woodlands & a cleric or druid who gets a staff of the magi is entirely incapable of using them at all.

@mitigant claimed magic weapons and armor would drop about twice as oftestaffs/rods/etc and robes.

There was no number placed on how often the staff or rod would be one useful to a particular wizard. Not a number put on how useful they would be. There was also no number put to how often the weapon or armor that dropped would be useful to a particular fighter. Nor a number put on how useful they would be.

Thus, the claim that fighters have better magic item support than wizards doesn’t follow due to insufficient evidence.

The only claim that does follow is that magic items a fighter can equip drop more often. But that’s not the same claim that magic items favor fighters.