D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[DND_Reborn]

@DND_Reborn - I do have one question:

Why, when 20 levels is already too many for the majority of tables, do your revisions all go to 30 levels? Are you fighting against the tide here?

Put another way, is there merit in looking at reducing the overall number of levels to, say, 15, rather than increasing them to 30; and thus commensurately reducing the amount of overall power at "capstone" stage, for al classes?

The shift for spell levels 7 - 9 into caster levels 21 - 30 is to make the largest change in the easiest fashion. I am only modifying that and don't need to rework all the other classes to fit into levels 1-15 (although I did this once already LOL).

The design goal is to keep the class tables as close to RAW as possible. This change would make it so level 20 casters could get 6th level spells (which are pretty powerful IMO), but keep the truly game-breaking stuff into the epic/superhero tier style of play for people who want it.

It also creates playable "ranges". Suppose you want a full "mundane game" then play levels 1-10 or 15. If you want a superhero game, start at level 11 and play to 30. And so on.

I don't really see any of the capstone features as nearly on par with spells level 7 - 9, but that is my view and I know others probably feel differently.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Sure.

I could see giving the fighter an adrenaline pool (or something) that can be used in lieu of HD, or to add to a roll this way, etc. I just wouldn't use HD.

Ok, thanks for your feedback!

I always liked viewing HD as the adrenaline pool/ inner strength, which is why you can spend it on a short rest to recovery hp, so I used it here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The shift for spell levels 7 - 9 into caster levels 21 - 30 is to make the largest change in the easiest fashion. I am only modifying that and don't need to rework all the other classes to fit into levels 1-15 (although I did this once already LOL).

The design goal is to keep the class tables as close to RAW as possible. This change would make it so level 20 casters could get 6th level spells (which are pretty powerful IMO), but keep the truly game-breaking stuff into the epic/superhero tier style of play for people who want it.

It also creates playable "ranges". Suppose you want a full "mundane game" then play levels 1-10 or 15. If you want a superhero game, start at level 11 and play to 30. And so on.

I don't really see any of the capstone features as nearly on par with spells level 7 - 9, but that is my view and I know others probably feel differently.

I do wonder how you expect spellcaster players to react to these rather violent nerfs. Do any of your players play wizards? What's their take on your ideas?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Ok, thanks for your feedback!

I always liked viewing HD as the adrenaline pool/ inner strength, which is why you can spend it on a short rest to recovery hp, so I used it here.

Yeah, I've seen plenty of designs that followed that logic. And I'd even agree it makes sense from certain perspectives. I've felt the temptation myself.

The only problem is that doing so undermines what Hit Dice are meant to do, acting as a buffer against the 5MWD. I'd say that the only alternate uses for HD I might be in favor of would be those that also act against the 5MWD, like converting HD into spells slots. But I'd be wary of making such a change, since it could have the opposite effect. Players might be more inclined to nova if they knew they could just recharge their slots by burning HD, ultimately resulting in a net shorter work day (and a less challenging game).

 

[DND_Reborn]

I do wonder how you expect spellcaster players to react to these rather violent nerfs. Do any of your players play wizards? What's their take on your ideas?

All positive, but we prefer a low-magic game. I know a lot of players don't want to resort to shooting light crossbows, etc. but my group prefers to keep magic more low-key, rarer, etc.

Also, it helps with the issue of non-casters comparative power to casters, which we see as being extreme in tiers 3 and 4 especially. This current version isn't final, just the most "extreme" so far.

FWIW, Wizards are in my top three favorite classes:

Favorite combat: Fighter
Favorite skilled: Rogue
Favorite caster: Wizard

Every player in our group has plays full casters about half the time. One guy loves Druids, another favors Sorcerers, etc.

It really just depends on the style of game you want to play. I would rather adjust the casting progressions than just play levels 1-12 over and over.

EDIT: I should also point out a lot of players (not in my group, but other groups) like to begin at 3rd level when everyone has their subclasses, etc., so that was part of the design. At levels 1 and 2, you are truly an apprentice, without even a 1st level spell and only cantrips. At 3rd level, everyone has subclasses, etc. For people who find this too restrictive, you can just start at level 3 like those groups do anyway.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The only problem is that doing so undermines what Hit Dice are meant to do, acting as a buffer against the 5MWD. I'd say that the only alternate uses for HD I might be in favor of would be those that also act against the 5MWD, like converting HD into spells slots. But I'd be wary of making such a change, since it could have the opposite effect. Players might be more inclined to nova if they knew they could just recharge their slots by burning HD, ultimately resulting in a net shorter work day (and a less challenging game)

FWIW, this is another use for HD is to gain more spell slots, but that is because we nerfed the number of spell slots casters get otherwise. If you want more, you have to pay for it. If you run out of HD, you can even resort to gaining levels of exhaustion.

 

[Yaarel]

The Rogue class contributes significantly to the combat pillar.

The Rogue has a higher damage-per-round than the Fighter does, at least than the sword-and-shield Fighter does.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The Rogue class contributes significantly to the combat pillar.

The Rogue has a higher damage-per-round than the Fighter does, at least than the sword-and-shield Fighter does.

Which frankly to me and my group is a bug, not a feature. Rogues already excel at skills, so should be good at combat, certainly, but not to the point they rival or beat the fighter IMO.

I know WotC wanted "every class to be able to contribute", but fighters get the short end of the stick IMO... they can be beaten in combat, but really can't compete in exploration, social, or magic with the other classes. Their only hope really is a DM who likes to hand out magic items...

 

[Lanefan]

The shift for spell levels 7 - 9 into caster levels 21 - 30 is to make the largest change in the easiest fashion. I am only modifying that and don't need to rework all the other classes to fit into levels 1-15 (although I did this once already LOL).

The design goal is to keep the class tables as close to RAW as possible. This change would make it so level 20 casters could get 6th level spells (which are pretty powerful IMO), but keep the truly game-breaking stuff into the epic/superhero tier style of play for people who want it.

One potential side effect to keep in mind is that if when the PCs need a high-level spell cast (the most common being Resurrection) they're going to have to find an even-higher-level NPC to do it for them than is currently the case, meaning the setting will have to accommodate said very-high-level NPCs.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

One potential side effect to keep in mind is that if when the PCs need a high-level spell cast (the most common being Resurrection) they're going to have to find an even-higher-level NPC to do it for them than is currently the case, meaning the setting will have to accommodate said very-high-level NPCs.

Nah. Just get rid of resurrection so that death actually matters instead of just being a financial inconvenience.