D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[Bedrockgames]

This very much depends on the edition (especially if you are dealing with 1E or 2E with the classes having different amounts of XP needed for gaining levels). But as a general rule, the wizard should bide his time and wait until he has third level spells before considering an attack on the fighter in the party, while the fighter should strike early, before the wizard gains enough power to turn evil and betray the party. Of course, the wizard, knowing this is the case, ought to feign weakness, and pretend he can only can use magic missile for years that he may surprise the fighter and the rest of the party with chain lightning. And obviously, the fighter, knowing that the wizard knows this, and will naturally use such a deception, should kill every low wizard he encounters, so that he never falls victim to a chain lightning attack. Which means every wizard should live a life of seclusion, until they are level 18: vowing revenge on all the fighters who slayed their arcane brethren.

 

[HammerMan]

This very much depends on the edition (especially if you are dealing with 1E or 2E with the classes having different amounts of XP needed for gaining levels). But as a general rule, the wizard should bide his time and wait until he has third level spells before considering an attack on the fighter in the party, while the fighter should strike early, before the wizard gains enough power to turn evil and betray the party. Of course, the wizard, knowing this is the case, ought to feign weakness, and pretend he can only can use magic missile for years that he may surprise the fighter and the rest of the party with chain lightning. And obviously, the fighter, knowing that the wizard knows this, and will naturally use such a deception, should kill every low wizard he encounters, so that he never falls victim to a chain lightning attack. Which means every wizard should live a life of seclusion, until they are level 18: vowing revenge on all the fighters who slayed their arcane brethren.

I also remember when a campagin starting at level 2 only expected to run ro level 6 and someone said they would play the wizard and we all thought that was HARD mode D&D... 5e is not at all as mean to 1st level wizards

 

[tetrasodium]

@mitigant claimed magic weapons and armor would drop about twice as oftestaffs/rods/etc and robes.

There was no number placed on how often the staff or rod would be one useful to a particular wizard. Not a number put on how useful they would be. There was also no number put to how often the weapon or armor that dropped would be useful to a particular fighter. Nor a number put on how useful they would be.

Thus, the claim that fighters have better magic item support than wizards doesn’t follow due to insufficient evidence.

The only claim that does follow is that magic items a fighter can equip drop more often. But that’s not the same claim that magic items favor fighters.

Have you looked at the treasure tables that you are arguing against? The actual number is probably quite a bit higher than "about twice as often" but you are trying to extend that into another point of if the magic weapons & magic armor are the preferred types of or not.

 

[FrogReaver]

Have you looked at the treasure tables that you are arguing against? The actual number is probably quite a bit higher than "about twice as often"

If he would have said 4x it wouldn’t have changed anything in my argument. The exact ratio isn’t important to my point.

but I must ask, why are you telling me that’s an underestimate when it was @Minigiant that established that estimate? Tell him!

but you are trying to extend that into another point of if the magic weapons & magic armor are the preferred types of or not.

Isn’t that an important consideration when it comes to determining which character is going to be equipped with more/better magic items?

 

[Maxperson]

The conclusion that treasure tables are more pro-fighter and anti-wizard doesn’t follow from the correct premise that magic weapons and armorers will drop more than magic rods/staffs/etc and robes. Why? Because what makes treasure pro-fighter is if the treasure dropped is something actually beneficial to the fighter in question, with some thought placed into the question of how beneficial they are. (+1 dagger isn’t very beneficial great sword fighter, If he already has a +1 weapon if any other type it’s essentially useless.)

the game could have 999 +1 daggers drop for every other magic item that drops and that high drop rate for an item usable by a fighter still wouldn’t mean the game is more pro fighter than pro wizard in terms of magic items.

Further, my Bladesinger would have been interested in some of those weapons and armor as well.

 

[Maxperson]

@mitigant claimed magic weapons and armor would drop about twice as oftestaffs/rods/etc and robes.

And ignores that there are even more items that are for anyone than for either wizards or fighters, so most items will be up for grabs by anyone in the group.

 

[Voadam]

I will raise you the craft'sman +1 short swords...

it was years ago, we had a DM throw a bunch of mooks at us and so we all ended up with +1 short swords (for the fighter it was a back up weapon) however the DM kept useing the same stats... orcs, all this stats, hobgoblins these stats, mooks and more mooks, but over the course of about a year of playing the rogue just kept keeping all the +1 short swords, he covered them and put them in a bag of holding... in one city he bought a second bag of holding and we laughed at him...

we took down time of a year somewhere around level 13. We went around the table everyone said what they were doing. get to the rogue and he set up a stall and was selling short swords "Guaranteed for life, if it breaks come back I will give you a new one free of charge." normal short swords sell for 10gp, but these he is selling for 12gp because of the life time warranty. He had almost 2,000 short swords... when we asked why sell +1 short swords so cheap, he said "I'm driving longswords and greatswords out of business"

Having run a lot of Basic and 1e modules in an ongoing campaign in the 80s I remember the players noticing that they ended up with a ton of +1 maces and daggers. The 1e drow MU-Cleric was fine with that.

 

[tetrasodium]

If he would have said 4x it wouldn’t have changed anything in my argument. The exact ratio isn’t important to my point.

but I must ask, why are you telling me that’s an underestimate when it was @Minigiant that established that estimate? Tell him!


Isn’t that an important consideration when it comes to determining which character is going to be equipped with more/better magic items?

Not any more important than if a caster is going to enjoy the same or not and you want to dismiss that. Dismissing that half dismisses both from relevance. There is a stark difference between "Alice the fighter would rather use a different magic weapon that grants the ability to ignore resist nonmagical b/p/s" and "Bob the caster is entirely incapable of benefitting from or using a focus item intended for a different type of caster". Not only does alice have orders of magnitude better odds in the treasure tables than Bob, she also has the secondary advantage of being able to get a big benefit from suboptimal results

 

[FrogReaver]

Not any more important than if a caster is going to enjoy the same or not and you want to dismiss that. Dismissing that half dismisses both from relevance. There is a stark difference between "Alice the fighter would rather use a different magic weapon that grants the ability to ignore resist nonmagical b/p/s" and "Bob the caster is entirely incapable of benefitting from or using a focus item intended for a different type of caster". Not only does alice have orders of magnitude better odds in the treasure tables than Bob, she also has the secondary advantage of being able to get a big benefit from suboptimal results

Of course it matters on the caster side as well. The point is that neither question is actually being answered for the caster nor for the martial and so we can’t conclude who actually benefits more from magic items. All we can say is that magic items fighters can use drop more often. Which isn’t close to being enough to support the claim being made about magic items favoring them more.

 

[Bacon Bits]

There is a breakdown of fighter damage with a couple different weapons here in this post & there's an excessive spreadsheet here. The extra ASI/Feats at 6 & 14 stacking on each attack makes a big difference beyond 11-12. 20 strength+gwm+sentinel & those plus something likee heavy armor master/shield master/sharpshooter/etc

IMO, there shouldn't be any significant increase in damage for fighter after level 12 until you get to level 20 and get Extra Attack (3). Not from the class and not really from feats. Not even Action Surge (2) really adds that much in terms of damage over the course of the adventuring day.

By the time you're level 12, a Fighter has had ASIs at 4, 6, 8, and 12. With modern racial attribute bonuses, you should always start with a 17 Str or Dex (or higher). If you burn one ASI on +2 Str/Dex and one ASI on a half feat with +1 Str/Dex, you've still easily got a 20 primary attribute by level 6. Then, whichever feats you select, whether that's GWM and PM or Sentinel, or SS and CE, you should have everything you're ever actually going to get that really gives you extra damage. There are other feats, but none of them are as potent as the -5/+10 abilities. And if you're a human or (far more likely) a custom lineage, then you're going to have that half feat at level 1 and start with an 18 in Str/Dex and be set even sooner. Further, your proficiency bonus is +4 at level 9, and it only ever improves by +2 higher over the next 10 levels of the game.

Any way you slice it, fighters should cap out around levels 8-12 as far as build selection. For the most part they get nothing compelling from their class after level 11 until level 20 regardless of their subclass, too. It's so underwhelming that it's not really a great idea to stay a fighter after level 11-12 at all. You're much better off switching to barbarian, rogue, artificer, paladin, ranger, anything.