D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[DND_Reborn]

They're huge at every level. It's a dumb spell list.

Perhaps you would like my updated spell lists? FYI, bards are half-casters.

D&D 5E - The Quest to Reduce "Sameyness" (+)

This thread is going to the heart of something that really irks the Libra in me---too much sameyness between classes (not concerned about sameyness within classes--which I don't feel is there, but that is a different topic). There is too much overlap, to the point at one point we consolidated...

www.enworld.org

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah. It's more or less 2-3 ASI to get a 20 and 2 feats that match your style and you cap out.

Every ASI or Feat is lateral versatility after that. +CON for HP.

Why do the feats need to be combat. There are multiple non-combat feats that increase versatility by increase the fighter's capability in the other pillars.

 

[Minigiant]

Why do the feats need to be combat. There are multiple non-combat feats that increase versatility by increase the fighter's capability in the other pillars.

Because fighter is the combat class? That's why people say it can't have shenanigans.

If feats aren't for combat, it's worse. Then fighter tops out at level 11.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You realize I mentioned that later? You're just looking silly because you stopped reading.

I didn't stop reading. The embarrassing part was that you somehow thought that it was even worth suggesting that you could separate the main abilities of primary casters from their spells.

Warlocks don't have as good a spell list as wizard or sorcerer. But it doesn't really matter that much if they did, because they never stop being wands of eldritch blast. The rest of their spellcasting is simply too shallow.

Have you even played a warlock?

They get so little of anything between 2nd and 11th level -- which is 90% of the game -- that the class is pretty universally known almost exclusively for it's multiclassing potential.

I'll take that as a no and that pretty much all you know of warlocks is based on hearsay. Because claiming they are "pretty universally known almost exclusively for it's[sic] multiclassing potential" is untrue and shows no deeper than meme-level understanding.

Warlocks not only have about as many spells known as (non-Aberrant Mind/Clockwork Soul) sorcerers, they get to retrain their spells with each level so they have more casting flexibility with their high end spells than anyone except a wizard. The sorcerer needs to clog their low level spell slots to have attack spells and flexibility.

Not seeing the effect of the pact boon and its enhancement is just a poor understanding. The Pact of the Chain gives a massive gap between the flying, invisible, hand-having, intelligent familiar and the normal wizard version (and the sprite can be enhanced to provide solid combat bonuses raining poison/sleep arrows down with an invocation) - this only really falls off in utility when invisibility does. Meanwhile the Pact of the Tome plus the Book of Ancient Secrets makes warlocks the best ritualists in the game. How useful that is varies from campaign to campaign. And that's without getting into the invocations learned at 7th and 9th level (both Speak with Dead and Levitation as at will abilities can be pretty useful)

Worse, they don't get teleport or wish with mystic arcanum. Don't get me wrong, higher level spells are still better than what non-casters get, and I said as much. However, my experience is that the effectiveness of casters is mainly in pumping out 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell effects while burning 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level slots on reactions for defense. Warlock can't do any of that. That's why nobody stick around.).

Warlocks from level 11 upwards can pump out more 5th level spells than wizards per long rest, and with one short rest it's more 5th level spells than wizards get 4th level. I wouldn't say "can't do any of that". And that's without the round to round that's closer to martials. The odd thing is how squishy they get.

If nobody's sticking around with your group and warlocks check whether you're giving out enough short rests.

 

[Maxperson]

Because fighter is the combat class? That's why people say it can't have shenanigans.

The fighter does plenty well in combat as is. It needs help in the other pillars.

If feats aren't for combat, it's worse. Then fighter tops out at level 11.

That's a poor opinion in my opinion. The fighter does very well in combat at higher levels. Plus the additional feats help shore up its weakness in the other pillars and you get additional benefits like the amazing second Action Surge for the important fights, a superiority die every round, and more. All without having to multiclass into a class you didn't want in the first place.

 

[Minigiant]

The fighter does plenty well in combat as is. It needs help in the other pillars.

No one said fighter is bad at combat.

That's a poor opinion in my opinion. The fighter does very well in combat at higher levels. The additional feats help shore up its weakness in the other pillars and you get additional benefits like the amazing second Action Surge for the important fights, a superiority die every round, and more.

What is said is that fighter power growth in growth slows then stops at level 11/12.

So that the lack of out of combat ability, the narrowness, and the low reason to stay fighter aren't worth the "strength."

 

[Maxperson]

What is said is that fighter power growth in growth slows then stops at level 11/12.

That's objectively impossible. The mere existence of the additional Action Surge is an increase in power higher than those levels. And there are more than two combat feats to be taken by a fighter. And the increased ASIs continue to improve saves, which improves combat power. And increased hit points improve combat power. And the additional crits(champion) and superiority dice(battlemaster) improve combat power. And the extra attack at 20th level improves combat power.

It may not be where you prefer, but the fighter's power continues to grow all the way to 20th level.

So that the lack of out of combat ability, the narrowness, and the low reason to stay fighter aren't worth the "strength."

In your opinion. I wouldn't multiclass, because it it worth it to me. The fighter just needs a bit more help in the other pillars is all.

 

[Minigiant]

That's objectively impossible. The mere existence of the additional Action Surge is an increase in power higher than those levels. And there are more than two combat feats to be taken by a fighter. And the increased ASIs continue to improve saves, which improves combat power. And increased hit points improve combat power. And the additional crits(champion) and superiority dice(battlemaster) improve combat power. And the extra attack at 20th level improves combat power.

It may not be where you prefer, but the fighter's power continues to grow all the way to 20th level.

Feats barely stack and you really can only have 2-3 in effect at a time. And you have to wait to level 17 to get a second Action surge, which you really shouldn't do in the same encounter.
So eeeeeeeeeeeeeh

 

[Mordhau]

Why do the feats need to be combat. There are multiple non-combat feats that increase versatility by increase the fighter's capability in the other pillars.

One thing that everyone fails to value is the Fighters' ability to pick up Resilience. I would put having Resilience(Wisdom) up there with Great Weapon Fighter and Sentinel, things that hit Wisdom like Fear effects can make you unable to do your thing at all. (In fact it's one of the few things you can do ever to meaningfully adjust to circumstances).

The Fighter can also get good value just out of raising Con.

Not that I don't have huge issues with the class as a whole. But I don't think running out of things to spend ASIs on is one of them.

 

[Maxperson]

Feats barely stack and you really can only have 2-3 in effect at a time. And you have to wait to level 17 to get a second Action surge, which you really shouldn't do in the same encounter.
So eeeeeeeeeeeeeh

It's still objectively the fighter increasing in power up until 20th level. And a lot of us love it and are fine with the fighter.