D&D 5E Waterdeep: Dragon Heist Post-Mortem (Spoilers)

[TheSword]

Obviously this whole thing is subjective. But I'm mainly responding to your claim that you "can't understand" why "anyone" thinks they can run the adventure as written. In fact, assuming that you can run the adventure you paid $50 for pretty much as written is a perfectly natural assumption and one that I guarantee the majority of purchasers - who are casual gamers and not dedicated ENWorld posters, pro DMs, or DMs with 20+ years of experience, definitely make.

Nah. Hard disagree.

Money is irrelevant. I have no idea why people keep quoting $50

If it was a failure as is being suggested then the reviews would accredit it such. They don’t.

So some people don’t like it. You can’t be all things to all people.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

Deleted this post. Wrong thread!

 

[Burnside]

Nah. Hard disagree.

Money is irrelevant. I have no idea why people keep quoting $50

If it was a failure as is being suggested then the reviews would accredit it such. They don’t.

So some people don’t like it. You can’t be all things to all people.

Money is NOT irrelevant if you don’t have a lot of it and have to think very carefully about what for a lot of people is a substantial luxury entertainment purchase. If you are not in that position, good for you. But hand-waving it is a privilege.

 

[TheSword]

Money is NOT irrelevant if you don’t have a lot of it and have to think very carefully about what for a lot of people is a substantial luxury entertainment purchase. If you are not in that position, good for you. But hand-waving it is a privilege.

Not really. Because 4 people playing a campaign like this for 40 hours plus makes the cost $0.35 per hour per person. And therefore the cheapest entertainment you’re likely to see in any decade. If you can’t afford $0.35 per hour, then you have a whole different set of problems, of which deciding which adventure to play is surely the least of them.

 

[Burnside]

Not really. Because 4 people playing a campaign like this for 40 hours plus makes the cost $0.35 per hour per person. And therefore the cheapest entertainment you’re likely to see in any decade. If you can’t afford $0.35 per hour, then you have a whole different set of problems, of which deciding which adventure to play is surely the least of them.

That assumes anybody but the DM is paying, which is very seldom the case, and also that you’re somehow buying the book on layaway.

 

[TheSword]

That assumes anybody but the DM is paying, which is very seldom the case, and also that you’re somehow buying the book on layaway.

If the DM isn’t sharing the cost that’s their problem. I don’t buy my friends dinner then complain that I can’t afford it.

 

[Retreater]

In my 30+ years of GMing, I think I've had players purchase the following for me...
1) Gifted me a subscription upgrade to Roll20 as a thanks for running online games.
2) Bought me a digital copy of Dragon Heist on Roll20 because he really wanted to play it.
3) Gave me a dragon mini that I could paint and display to commemorate a memorable encounter.
All of these purchases have been in the approximate past 2 years.

The expenses that no player has given me...
1) Countless rulebooks that I've purchased to find the system they'd like
2) Miniatures to represent their characters.
3) Adventure modules (of which I'm sure I've purchased hundreds - maybe thousands if you could PDFs)
4) Dice, gaming mats, pencils, paper, gaming table, and other accoutrements
5) Paid for convention attendance or registration for events (though I have chipped in for others)

I am a DM, and as foolish as it sounds, I take it seriously. I do not ask my players to provide any of this stuff, only their attention, involvement, and desire to play the game. I love the game and entertaining my friends.
So when I buy an adventure module, whether it's a $10 PDF, $40 Roll20 module, $50 hardcover, or whatever, I'm investing my time and potentially my friends' involvement in that adventure for sometimes 6 months (or more). I give it a lot of headspace - reading, planning, etc.
It's more than money to me. It's not just buying a novel or going to watch a movie.
The designers ask for our imaginations, to live in these worlds, to interact and care about the characters in a way deeper than you do at the cinema.
I have a feeling if you're on this board that you agree with me. I hope you do, anyway.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

I'm 35 sessions (about 70 hours) into my version of Dragon Heist. I used the Alexandrian Remix as inspiration, changed some of the factions, and replaced the Stone of Golorr with the Deck of Many Things. The result is arguably the best campaign I have ever run. It's thematically focused, has a variety of gameplay, and is always unpredictable. Lots of fun. I expect we'll wrap it up before session 50 with the characters just about 10th level.

 

[Hussar]

Which is the meaning that they are selling it with.

First time DM wants to run, they pick up a module or adventure and run it. That's been true since Basic D&D days. Good DMs could and would customize them, but there has never been a general expectation that running a module straight would be an failure, that it was only intended as a starter kit to customize.

Never.


No, they are marketing it like they intend. WotC is guilty of just putting out some bad product at times.

Just to be stupidly pedantic - Keep on the Borderlands absolutely was intended as a starter kit to customise.

I wonder if that might explain some of the difference in approach here. Early, 1e and 2e modules especially, absolutely expected DM's to modify and flesh them out. To the point of deliberately leaving areas blank or giving suggestions for what the DM might do to flesh it out.

I'd almost argue that it's the Adventure Path modules that have been presented as complete and containing everything needed to run them. Which is something kinda new in modules.

 

[Retreater]

Just to be stupidly pedantic - Keep on the Borderlands absolutely was intended as a starter kit to customise.

Well, as someone who has just recently prepped an OSE version of B1: In Search of the Unknown, I would completely agree with that. However, those were like two of the very first adventures for Basic D&D - and the tradition of "fill out this dungeon to learn how to be a DM" more or less ended 40 years ago.

I'd almost argue that it's the Adventure Path modules that have been presented as complete and containing everything needed to run them. Which is something kinda new in modules.

I know there were semantics on here (maybe another post, but in another Post-Mortem anyway) in which someone was saying "Adventure Paths" don't apply to the mega-campaign adventures by WotC. I'd say that it's been the norm for the entirety of Pathfinder's existence and basically all of 5e - so pretty much the last decade.

Again, if they presented these as campaign "toolboxes" for creating a mystery investigation (or a hexcrawl, etc.) I don't think I'd have as big of an issue. However, I'm trying to imagine myself as a 13 year-old trying to DM my friends in their first game. I'd be at a complete loss with many of these adventures - not to mention terribly overwhelmed by a 200+ page hardcover adventure (to go along with the three core books).
Definitely need more 32 page adventures, or at least more straightforward things that don't have complex flowcharts, etc.