D&D 5E Beast master wants to use pet to get +5 to passive perception

If you had to guess....what would a wolf standing up, staring Intently into the darkness to the SouthWest, hair raised in fear, and emitting a low growl signify.

And that is ITS perception check, it's not the ranger with the observant feat, which is basically what you give him if you give the ranger advantage.

Once more, I have nothing against a wolf standing watch, I think it's cool and natural, what I object to is the player trying to bend the rules backwards to justify a help action to get advantage, which does not correspond to what is actually happening. And wanting to add this to his observant feat which, by the way, is already a way of saying that he has advantage on passive perception.
 

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I would definitely allow the animal companion to grant the +5 to passive perception. Makes both mechanical and thematic sense. However, if the opposing stealth check fell within the extra +5 range, I might be inclined to tell the player something like "Your wolf starts growling, you notice that its hackles are up. Your wolf is facing this direction." Rather than, say, "You catch a glimpse of a slender figure - possibly a drow - and a gleam of metal.....over here."
 

Players can't actually bend rules though or even abuse them. The only one who has control over the rules is the DM who is tasked with arbitrating between the rules and the players.

I'm sorry, but this is quite a naive view. I've seen many, many instances of players bending and abusing the rules, even including nasty behaviour like threats or verbal violence on top of persisting ruleslawyering. Not every DM knows all the rules by heart, or are strong enough to resist a powerful ruleslawyer, or are actually willing to clash.

Yes, theoretically, in 5e (but it was way less the case in 3e for example, with the player-centricity and the complexity of rules), the DM has all the tools, but is he willing and able to use them, I don't think it's the case all the time and with all the tables. I'm looking in particular at all the people who are saying that they play RAW, where it's such a nebulous concept in 5e that it's easy to discuss for hours on interpretations.

The player in this thread is asking if the wolf can work together with the PC for a bonus to passive Perception, not abusing the rules.

And I will accept that as the basis for discussion, while at the same time warning that the type of abuse exists, especially on what is (despite what you write below) by far the most valuable skill in the game and the one that is so critical for survival at some tables.

Your interpretation of the rules appears to be, like many DMs, too generous which makes passive Perception overvalued. It's not always-on radar except in combat or setting up for combat (i.e. determining surprise).

This is wrong, both RAW and RAI. For example in the RAW, the stealth rule that I have given to you show that it applies completely out of combat for hidden creatures, and it's therefore always on. As for RAI, here are the exact words from JC in the podcast on stealth: "It makes sense going back to passive perception. This is, as its name implies, passive. And it's considered to be always on, unless you're under the effect of a condition like the unconscious condition that says you're not aware of your surroundings that really the practical effect of that is basically your passive perception is shut off. Passive perception is on basically whenever you're conscious and aware."

And I agree with that, and that's the way I play it, just as with passive insight, which I use a lot in social situations (in particular to avoid the "is he lying ? I want to roll insight" annoyance).

Players do have to declare their actions, whether they are one-offs or repeated actions. And some of those actions can be mutually exclusive with other actions. To do otherwise incentivizes maximizing Perception beyond what the game likely intends. To then suggest it's somehow wrong to maximize Perception in that context is a little weird in my opinion. The DM in this case sets the stage for it happen and then judges the player when they do what they are incentivized to do. Why wouldn't I want to detect creatures, traps, and secret doors much of the time with very little opportunity cost and no risk? That's a great deal if the DM is running the game that way!

As written above, your interpretation of passive is not inline with either the RAW and the RAI. Obviously, as a DM, I can and will certainly give disadvantage or even make it an automatic failure in certain circumstances, for example depending on environment (lots of noise, smoke, etc.) or players action, for example if they are completely absorbed in some task. But these are exceptions rather than the rule.

There are examples in the travelling rules, but note that these are already specific cases, as mentioned in all the campaigns that we have run in 5e, we have used these for just a couple of weeks when playing ToA, because in most of the cases, there is nothing to navigate, no map to draw, no tracks to follow and certainly no foraging, or there are NPCs able to do this (for example, in Avernus, the characters are travelling with their army, or in a huge Infernal War Machine with devil servants, etc.). Or we just gloss over the travel to focus on the story and on the nuggets of action.

We're talking about traps and secret doors, right? Those are both things to be poked and prodded to figure out how they work and, in the case of traps, disarm (or at least bypass in some fashion). I'm not sure what you mean as to uncertainty about how interesting it is. Why would you include content in your game that isn't interesting?

I want them to be interesting in particular in terms of suspense and danger, but also cleverness about thinking that they might be present, but optionally poking at them when none of the former elements exist reduces them to almost nothing.

Further, I don't see why this invalidates other characters' abilities to interface with the environment. Everyone is free to declare whatever actions they want while traveling the adventure location. There's no need for the DM to make any special preparation for highly perceptive characters either. I certainly don't. If you're keeping watch and in the front rank, you might avoid surprise and see the traps - great!

No, with what the player is asking for, it's not "might", it's "will", and it therefore invalidates all the choices of other PCs, since that guy will one-man all these activities. By the way, that is the problem with optimisation, it widens the gap and shuts other people out of segments of the game. And yes, it's often about combat, but not only, I've seen it done quite a bit in the social pillar to shut other players out of discussions, but also like in this case in the exploration pillar.

For the second bullet, it seems to me you are ignoring certain rules for reasons that are unclear when it comes to how you handle Perception, thus creating a situation where it is more useful than intended.

As demonstrated above, YOU are the one ignoring the RAW and the RAI with your personal interpretations.

Don't worry, at our tables, we shift as much as we can to investigation, but still this is mostly for story/searching purpose, in terms of danger perception is still absolutely king.

To correct for this, you then have a social agreement that nobody should then avail themselves of the opportunity by investing in Perception accordingly unless they have some kind of good in-character reason for it (which is easy to just make up in my view). It seems easier to me to just run Perception as it says to and everything else will fall into place. @Seramus has helpfully posted a number of the related rules to take into account.

Again, as demonstrated above, you views about what perception says are the ones which are incorrect, both RAW and RAI. I'm not saying that you are wrong to change them that way in your game, but please leave the "you don't know what you are doing, read the rules" tone out and apply it to yourself first.
 

For the second bullet, it seems to me you are ignoring certain rules for reasons that are unclear when it comes to how you handle Perception, thus creating a situation where it is more useful than intended. To correct for this, you then have a social agreement that nobody should then avail themselves of the opportunity by investing in Perception accordingly unless they have some kind of good in-character reason for it (which is easy to just make up in my view). It seems easier to me to just run Perception as it says to and everything else will fall into place.

Coming back to that point, because it's actually very much bizarre that you prefer limiting your players' choices at start for their character than correctly applying the rules of the game as written ?

Honestly, if a class has perception as a class skill, or a background, there is already good reason. Moreover, as the reverse of the Stormwind Fallacy, it's such a simple trick to justify a skill by inventing background that it would certainly hamper no one at all.

Whereas, as a DM, I much prefer granting advantage or disadvantage (or even auto success/failure) depending on circumstances exactly as indicated by the rules, during play, including saying simply: "It's just a wolf, it's well trained, so if you ask him to stand watch, he will do so to the best of its abilities, but to the best of HIS abilities, NOT YOURS, although of course yours apply to, on their own. It cannot be a really coordinated effort as it's only an animal, but you will of benefit from noticing what the other one notices." End of story, can we please move on ?
 

How exactly can the wolf Help the Ranger with a Perception task when the Wolf does not speak Common and will therefore be unable to effectively share information? Why will the Ranger know that "Howl, howl, howl" means "Enemies are approaching" and not "I'm hungry"? Are wolf companions trained to point at intruders the way some dogs point at game?
Is this the Ranger equivalent of “the guy at the gym” fallacy?

This is Beastmaster ranger with his animal companion. Not only is she by her subclass extraordinarily close to animals, but this is the specific animal she has bonded to above all others.
 

You are missing the fact that this character basically invalidates most other characters' ability to interface in a more normal way with the environment in an exploration mode, taking the fun out of it and/or forcing the DM to design challenges specifically for him or around him.
This, I don’t get. Does the Rogue invalidate traps as a playstyle by taking expertise on thieves’ tools? What if she also takes the Dungeon Delver feat (the equivalent of Observant for traps)?

If a player wants to play a Ranger with the Observant feat, she’s pretty much telling everyone she wants to be good at spotting things.

As a player, this doesn’t invalidate my choices, this empowers them! Guess what, now my character doesn’t need to take Perception. I have one extra skill that I can use to take anything else. Maybe my druid can now take Medicine, since it fits with he archetype but in many situations isn’t as useful as Perception.
 

This, I don’t get. Does the Rogue invalidate traps as a playstyle by taking expertise on thieves’ tools? What if she also takes the Dungeon Delver feat (the equivalent of Observant for traps)?

Much less of a problem, nobody wants to tinker with traps anyway. The thing is, however, everyone cares about not having them explode in your face.

If a player wants to play a Ranger with the Observant feat, she’s pretty much telling everyone she wants to be good at spotting things.

And that's good, no problem, and it should be enough to distinguish him.

As a player, this doesn’t invalidate my choices, this empowers them! Guess what, now my character doesn’t need to take Perception.

Everyone needs perception. Because in case of surprise attack, everyone not spotting the adversary gets surprised, it's individual. In my experience, every class that has it as a class skill takes it (never seen any counter-example in any character), and quite a few of the others actually choose a background if they can get it and it makes at least a vague sense.

The thing is that, to challenge the observant guy, the DCs are now so high that others don't stand a chance. And that is the source of the problem.
 

And that is ITS perception check, it's not the ranger with the observant feat, which is basically what you give him if you give the ranger advantage.

Once more, I have nothing against a wolf standing watch, I think it's cool and natural, what I object to is the player trying to bend the rules backwards to justify a help action to get advantage, which does not correspond to what is actually happening. And wanting to add this to his observant feat which, by the way, is already a way of saying that he has advantage on passive perception.
I want to take a moment to clarify a couple details about how I would run this....

1. The passive perception check in my scenario is happening outside of "rounds". It's representing an encamped party sleeping with the ranger and wolf keeping watch.

2. If active checks were made in this situation I would let the player decide if they wanted to make two normal checks (one for ranger, second for wolf with successes narrated from the correct characters point of view) or instead make a single check with advantage from their characters point of view and narrated appropriately "You peer into the darkness in the direction the wolf is staring at and..."

3. If action shifted to rounds and the ranger wanted to keep their advantage to passive perception going I would allow it, but it would then consume the wolf's actions each round.

4. I think there is a difference in how the mechanics would apply to this situation in and out of rounds and a lot of the hang up seems to be trying to wedge in rounds rules to fit out of rounds checks.

I would give a ranger with a wolf advantage on a hunting skill check made to see if they find game for the days rations but that doesn't mean I going to give them advantage on an actual to hit roll in combat against a deer unless the wolf is actively using it's combat actions to help each round. The difference is that one roll represents an abstracted amount of time and the second a discrete section of time of which we have 10+ pages of rules in how things work.
 

1. The passive perception check in my scenario is happening outside of "rounds". It's representing an encamped party sleeping with the ranger and wolf keeping watch.

OK

2. If active checks were made in this situation I would let the player decide if they wanted to make two normal checks (one for ranger, second for wolf with successes narrated from the correct characters point of view) or instead make a single check with advantage from their characters point of view and narrated appropriately "You peer into the darkness in the direction the wolf is staring at and..."

And this is where we differ, I would not give them the choice. In particular, the stealth rule are clear, they are against the passive (or active if they are looking for) of single creatures. Perception is instinctive anyway, so you can benefit from someone's help in that they will let you know that they have spotted something, which is already cool and perfectly on the level of a wolf companion.

3. If action shifted to rounds and the ranger wanted to keep their advantage to passive perception going I would allow it, but it would then consume the wolf's actions each round.

This is not the way it works. If you are doing this in rounds and it's the only thing that you are doing (basically the only action that you are taking), you are actually specifically searching (the action called search), and there's not much reason for it to be passive.

In any case, I would not allow the combination perception, it's always on but it's instinctual, so having another one besides you only helps in so far as they can warn you if they sense something.

4. I think there is a difference in how the mechanics would apply to this situation in and out of rounds and a lot of the hang up seems to be trying to wedge in rounds rules to fit out of rounds checks.

In a sense, you are right, but fro me, it goes beyond that.

I would give a ranger with a wolf advantage on a hunting skill check made to see if they find game for the days rations but that doesn't mean I going to give them advantage on an actual to hit roll in combat against a deer unless the wolf is actively using it's combat actions to help each round. The difference is that one roll represents an abstracted amount of time and the second a discrete section of time of which we have 10+ pages of rules in how things work.

And for me, it's exactly the other way around. The help action in combat is well documented and makes sense, so if the wolf is actually jsut helping and not attacking himself, there is indeed a penalty that compensates the advantage that the ranger gets and it makes an overall sense.

After that, for hunting, I would consider the circumstances, sometimes it might help, sometimes not, but hunting is much more than just using sharp senses, you need to you your brain too, and that's where coordination becomes difficult. As for perception, which is purely instinctual, I would not allow the combination.
 

A dog lifting its head, ears perked up, and looking beyond the firelight, and the owner asking, "What is it, boy?" is a trope as old as westerns.

I can get that you don't like the mechanical request for some reason. But saying there's "no in-game logic" seems excessive.
I think that at least it can be debated whether there is enough in-game logic for justifying using the specific mechanic.

Just thinking out loud here...

Think of a case where there is a heavy fallen tree trunk to be moved. In the real world, it is well known by everyone's experience that while a single person might just not have the strength to lift it alone, two (or more) persons might succeed by combining their strength. If you decide to use ability checks to determine the resolution of such task in-game, the rules will fail, because aiding another would only grant advantage and that won't allow your maximum result to be a bit higher than the maximum result of a single person. In addition, a third (or ten more) person coming to help has no additional benefit, but obviously in real life 12 people may be able lift a tree trunk that 2-3 people cannot. That simply means, don't use the RAW in this case, or use another rule (like rules for lifting and dragging).

Then think of the case of a character and their pet, at the task of noticing a threat. Narratively, the old western dog can definitely help the owner noticing something they missed. You could actually rule that the character makes a check and the dog makes its own check, so each of them has their own separate chance at succeeding the task. This doesn't sound wrong, to represent the narrative... sometimes the owner succeeds, some other times they fail but the dog succeeds, so there's definitely the narrative of the dog helping the owner. "Work together" isn't THAT much different: instead of two separate rolls of the dice each with a different bonus, there is a two-roll-use-best with a single bonus (which actually raises the question whether it could actually be sometimes more convenient for the ranger to aid the pet if the latter has an overall higher bonus).

I certainly wouldn't say there is no in-game logic for these! Still, I can see how someone could prefer less abstraction, and claim that you can't help someone seeing or hearing or smelling better than how they already do, and decide to rule that you cannot use the "work together" (or "help" in combat) with perception. I don't think the rules strictly force one of the other.

The matter is complicated by the fact that the OP is actually interested in using "working together" with passive checks. The PHB says passive checks can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, but the way this presented doesn't imply this is the only possible meaning of a passive check (in fact it gives another option). Although personally I don't see this complicating the decision of whether the mechanic feels correct enough to a certain DM for representing in-game narrative, I do think it complicates game balance a bit (but again as I said before, only because when coupled with Observant, it turns a net Take 15 effect into a Take 20 which I personally do not like at all as it equates to always rolling 20 all the time).
 

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