D&D 5E Waterdeep: Dragon Heist Post-Mortem (Spoilers)

[Hussar]

When I criticize DH for being a railroad, that's predominantly because of the Chase chapter (which is a pretty important section of the adventure). The other sections are largely either freeform or at least not any more railroady than any other adventure. But that Chase chapter is something else. It doesn't matter how good (or bad) rolls are; it doesn't matter how clever (or dense) the characters are. The same thing happens regardless.

I guess that's the point I was working towards. It's a single section, and not a particularly long one at that - the earlier sections took much more time to play out - and it's a chase scene. A chase scene is extremely hard to do well and is linear by nature. The suggestion to "keep the macguffin out of the player's hands as long as possible" is perhaps bad advice (although not unredeemable) but, if you ignore that sidebar and simply let things fall where they may, it works fine too.

IOW, for me, it was a single session out of a module that lasted a dozen sessions, thereabouts. Meh, not something I get too tied up about, and, frankly, there's no real way that the players would know any of this anyway unless the DM gets really heavy handed about it.

So, in my view, you have a significant portion of the module that is pretty wide open, with a single session that's very linear that directly connects two other sections. Of course it's going to be railroady. Writing a chase scene like this that directly connects two parts of an adventure will always be a railroad.

 

[Lyxen]

I guess that's the point I was working towards. It's a single section, and not a particularly long one at that - the earlier sections took much more time to play out

No, they don't. Sorry, but for them to take time, they would have to be engaging. And they are not. The factions are extremely artificial, and the quests are not even worthy of WoW level 1-10 beginners quests. As for the tavern, it's again extremely artificial. So they did not take a lot of time at all to play.

- and it's a chase scene. A chase scene is extremely hard to do well and is linear by nature.

It's not a chase scene. It's a succession of 10 interactions in which whatever the players do is completely ignored. Because it seemed to be the core of the adventure rather than some non-engaging fluff, we put some effort into it, and try to actually find things. In vain, because in the end, whatever we did, we were doomed to fail, all our efforts ignored.

The suggestion to "keep the macguffin out of the player's hands as long as possible" is perhaps bad advice (although not unredeemable) but, if you ignore that sidebar and simply let things fall where they may, it works fine too.

And then the major part of the adventure, you know, actually related to the heist instead of being uninteresting filler just disappears, leaving you just with the filler and a 5 rooms dungeon. How great !

 

[Hussar]

Again, @Lyxen, I did not have any of the problems you did. My problems stemmed from the fact that the players were completely disinterested in Waterdeep. For me, the mansion was a ton of fun, the first three chapters were fantastic for grounding the players into the setting and showcasing Waterdeep.

But, I have a feeling you are not interested in actual discussion but rather would simply vent your spleen on something, so, I'll be stepping away and unsubbing to the thread. Have a good one.

 

[Lyxen]

Again, @Lyxen, I did not have any of the problems you did. My problems stemmed from the fact that the players were completely disinterested in Waterdeep. For me, the mansion was a ton of fun, the first three chapters were fantastic for grounding the players into the setting and showcasing Waterdeep.

And for us they were not, for the reasons listed. Tastes may vary, is that a problem ?

 

[ZehirDisciple]

I have heard a lot of bad things about this adventure, so I will not suggest it to my DM. However, I am interested in an urban adventure. Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

[Lyxen]

I have heard a lot of bad things about this adventure, so I will not suggest it to my DM. However, I am interested in an urban adventure. Does anyone have any suggestions?

I really liked the City part at the start of Tomb of Annihilation. It can easily be buffed to do the equivalent of WD-DH (level up to 5), especially if the characters do some forays in the jungle and come back to the city (this requires not putting too much time pressure on the Death Curse).

Same for the Baldur's Gate part of Descent into Avernus, easy to complete and transform into a real city adventure, and get the characters a bit more prepared for Avernus (which I've extended to level 20 anyway).

And the same for the parts in the cities of Odyssey of the Dragonlords, in particular Mytros, had a really good sandbox here that lasted many sessions, freeing minotaurs from slavery, the "olympic" games, etc.

As you can see, we love city adventures and try to get the best of what we have. This is for official adventures, after that, there are probably a few good third party ones, and I'd like to hear about them too. I think Bard's Gate might be good.

 

[Retreater]

I have heard a lot of bad things about this adventure, so I will not suggest it to my DM. However, I am interested in an urban adventure. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Monte Cook's Ptolus has recently been updated to 5e. I used it in 3rd edition, and it was a great setting with a lot of opportunities for adventure. IIRC, there are only a couple pre-written adventures, so the DM will need to augment it with original content.
If your DM doesn't mind conversion, I really enjoyed The Shackled City (from 3.5, the first Adventure Path by Paizo, in Dungeon Magazine and later published as a standalone hardcover).

 

[Lyxen]

Monte Cook's Ptolus has recently been updated to 5e. I used it in 3rd edition, and it was a great setting with a lot of opportunities for adventure. IIRC, there are only a couple pre-written adventures, so the DM will need to augment it with original content.

I think it's always a bit of a problem. The city settings are often good, but it's not that often that you get good adventures, or even less and Adventure Path around the city.

If your DM doesn't mind conversion, I really enjoyed The Shackled City (from 3.5, the first Adventure Path by Paizo, in Dungeon Magazine and later published as a standalone hardcover).

Good suggestion, I ran that one in 3e and it was indeed really good, although I seem to remember that, in the end, although Cauldron is indeed the hub, the adventures are not primarily city adventures. Maybe it's worth checking.

 

[Shardstone]

My issue with Dragon Heist is that the idea that the players have to steal the hoard of money from one of the four villains is just way more interesting then stopping one of the four villains from stealing the money. That's all there is to it. They said, in interviews, that Dragon Heist was a Fantasy Ocean's 11. Yet, it isn't, and if it was, it just would have been a better adventure.

You could easily have that adventure be in similar parts for the book.

• Discover the incident via the fireball
• Get contacted by the Blackstaff because you saw the incident
• Get Trollskull Manor to use as a base of operations that all four villains visit at some point (or representatives to them).
• Use clues to find where the hoard is located (which of the four villains has it!).
• Case the lair, do the heist.
• All four villains show up for a big finale at Trollskull Manor, and the players have to escape to get the gold to safety/to the Blackstaff.

And boom. An exciting city adventure, lots of room for open-world Waterdeep and stuff in there if you want it, and it feels like a heist.

I just don't understand why they went the route they did. I don't understand why they called it Ocean's 11 but in Waterdeep. It just flies in the face of common sense to me.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

I have heard a lot of bad things about this adventure, so I will not suggest it to my DM. However, I am interested in an urban adventure. Does anyone have any suggestions?

As others have noted, Dragon Heist can be made into a great campaign -- but it has to be modified. You can't play it straight out of the book. The Alexandrian Remix (google it) is probably the best online resource for how to modify the adventure. I'm running a remixed Dragon Heist right now and loving it.

Building on what Retreater said, Ptolus is the king of urban campaign settings. Regarding adventures, there are about 5 or 6 published adventures -- certainly enough to cobble together a campaign. The best of them is The Banewarrens. In the adventure, multiple evil factions discover and explore a lost dungeon that's a vault for evil artifacts -- and the players have to stop them. It's a perfect blend of dungeon crawl and urban adventure. I've been wanting to run the Banewarrens for years -- and now I finally am. We're 13 sessions in. It's going great so far. (Note that Banewarrens was originally designed for 4th - 10th level characters in 3E, but it's easy to convert to 5E and even scale it down to 1st level characters.)

I'll also put in a vote for Shackled City. I've not played it, but it I own the hardcover and it has some great stuff.

Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk from 3E has some good stuff for urban campaigns, and could be paired well with the Age of Worms adventure path.