D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[FrozenNorth]

That's generally my experience as well with o5e, especially with newer GMs who didn't GM much if older editions where they had tools like DM's best friend& bonus types or the older 1e/2e with more nebulous support. In o5e that lack of mechanical support tends to result in the fighter's dominance in a fight being extended to other areas of the game that allow a fighter's athletics & history proficiency to overcome almost any obstacle in areas that should be the wheelhouse of a different class in contrast to casters who need the exact situation allowed by a spell to occur at a time when they also have said spell prepared.

Aren’t wizards much better at History than Fighters given that History is an Int skill, on Wizards’ class list, and in many cases, makes sense for Wizards to be proficient in?

 

[Oofta]

I think an aspect of this is VERY appropriate for this thread.

Namely, IME, DM fiat is generally used to reign in the caster (vs. give the caster more leeway) while DM fiat is generally used to give the martial as much leeway as possible (vs. reign in the martial). This says A LOT as to the given power levels of the two.

I put some limits on spells. Banishment is not as powerful, teleport is largely nerfed. The banishment thing doesn't return creatures to their home plane unless they are near the portal that brought them because of how the planes work in my cosmology. I think teleport just makes for boring stories.

On the other hand, if a caster comes up with a unique way of using a spell, I'm all for it. Just like the fighter can swing from a chandelier if they want.

 

[FrozenNorth]

What I'm saying is that if the DM doesn't know you have teleport, the tower won't collapse immediately. We make the narrative as we go but the DM takes into account your capabilities

That seems to be the opposite from the situation described: the DM designs a situation based on the characters using a particular spell, and for whatever reason, the players don’t (or can’t use that spell).

That also doesn’t seem to be “shenanigans” under any common understanding of the phrase. What about situations where the use of spells bypass or simply ignore a part of the adventure?

I also want to dig in on the last sentence of your response:

We make the narrative as we go but the DM takes into account your capabilities

Emphasis added. IME, the DM only has to take into account your capabilities (specifically your class features) if you are playing a caster. That is part of the problem.

 

[Oofta]

That seems to be the opposite from the situation described: the DM designs a situation based on the characters using a particular spell, and for whatever reason, the players don’t (or can’t use that spell).

That also doesn’t seem to be “shenanigans” under any common understanding of the phrase. What about situations where the use of spells bypass or simply ignore a part of the adventure?

I also want to dig in on the last sentence of your response:

Emphasis added. IME, the DM only has to take into account your capabilities (specifically your class features) if you are playing a caster. That is part of the problem.

Magic is a big part of the game. If we didn't have magic, it wouldn't be D&D. So of course the DM has to take magic into consideration. For that matter, if I have a couple of PC fighters in the party that have high AC, I also have to take that into consideration. I have a fighter in my current game that has double the HP of the wizard and significantly more than anyone other PC. If I want to put that PC at risk I have to work at it, and yes, sometimes I build encounters with that in mind. I want everyone to be challenged now and then.

But saying the DM has to take into account all aspects of the party is just common sense. Same way that I wouldn't want a gamer where "Rocks fall everyone dies" if there is one and only one solution to a problem.

 

[Mort]

I put some limits on spells. Banishment is not as powerful, teleport is largely nerfed. The banishment thing doesn't return creatures to their home plane unless they are near the portal that brought them because of how the planes work in my cosmology. I think teleport just makes for boring stories.

On the other hand, if a caster comes up with a unique way of using a spell, I'm all for it. Just like the fighter can swing from a chandelier if they want.

Casters have so many "I win" buttons that I'm extremely hesitant to allow "creative" application of spells.

I've found that just allows for casters to step on even more toes than they already do.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Casters have so many "I win" buttons that I'm extremely hesitant to allow "creative" application of spells.

I've found that just allows for casters to step on even more toes than they already do.

I don't know that "creative" necessarily has to mean "beyond the normal scope of the spell". There are plenty of creative uses for spells that just use them as written.

For example, we once had a powerful allied NPC that was taken over by a parasitic organism that made her hostile. It resisted everything we could think of to cure it. So we killed her, which in turn killed the parasite, and then Resurrected her (but not the parasite)

Which is a bog standard use of Resurrection, but a creative (IMO) application thereof.

 

[Oofta]

I'm not saying that magic is not powerful. It is, obviously. I simply disagree with the idea that casters are far and beyond more powerful, that a fighter is pointless or needs to become yet another caster in all but name to compete. The game wouldn't be D&D without magic. But if someone can cast teleport in the party, why does that make my fighter less and not just different?

As far as DMs going out of their way to nerf casters? I can't count how many times my fighter that relies on heavy armor has been nerfed.

• No weapons allowed for this encounter. Wizard with a "walking staff"? No problem?
• Armor is forbidden in the city
• Wearing armor overnight while camping is forbidden*
• Heat metal cast on armor has no counter and you just suck
• Wearing heavy armor adjacent to water or heaven forbid a boat? You, and likely only you, will be going in the water where you immediately sink to the bottom.
• You can't wear heavy armor if the average temperature is above 80 Fahrenheit. The fact that any real world armor had a heavy quilted gambeson padding underneath is not relevant.

I'm sure I could come up with a longer list if I thought for a moment and it's a different topic.

*I have no idea how bad it would be, unless you've tried it in well fitting armor, neither do you.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

• they feel the gritty rest rules stretch verisimilitude.

Wait what? I get the other points, but this is a complete non sequitur, except in a sense that the gritty rests only stretch the verisimilitude whilst the normal rests shatter it with a sledgehammer.

 

[Oofta]

Wait what? I get the other points, but this is a complete non sequitur, except in a sense that the gritty rests only stretch the verisimilitude whilst the normal rests shatter it with a sledgehammer.

Yeah, a big reason I use gritty rest rules is for verisimilitude.

 

[Mort]

I don't know that "creative" necessarily has to mean "beyond the normal scope of the spell". There are plenty of creative uses for spells that just use them as written.

For example, we once had a powerful allied NPC that was taken over by a parasitic organism that made her hostile. It resisted everything we could think of to cure it. So we killed her, which in turn killed the parasite, and then Resurrected her (but not the parasite)

Which is a bog standard use of Resurrection, but a creative (IMO) application thereof.

Well, sure - that's using the spell as intended, even though it's a good use of it. Using the spell for its intended purpose but applied just right? That's great.

But, IME "creative" use of a spell means trying to go outside those boundaries (for ex. I can't count how many players in earlier editions tried to use the light spell as a "blind" spell). And that's usually a step too far for me. I refuse to have D&D magic, which is 100% reliable ALSO be extremely versatile in application. That's just gilding the lily!