D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[HammerMan]

adrenaline, training in mind body soul, warrior mana, the power of fiath... the power of love. power of pure will to over come... someone that watching dragonball and neruto might have more names for it...

the weave is just something we made up... we can make up 100 power sources... or we can use one... "warriors through str of will perserveance and physical training tap the weave to perform superhuman and extrodinary feats not of magic but of pure martial prowes..."

"The force talks to little things in our blood and lets us talk to nature andthe cosmic reality"

I mean we can make up what ever we want... WotC made the weave (I think TSR did in FR 2e but not sure, it is my least fav settin) so what stops them form making a martial power sources?

superboy prime can punch reality because he comes form a world that all other worlds are just stories... and writers can retcon stories.
captain atom has the quantum realm (not the same as marvel's antman one but i guess similar)
spiderman was science and is now multiverse magic with the web of life and destiny

i can't explain doctor manhatten

 

[Mort]

Give me a martial weave that allows them to access supernatural abilities and idgadarn how they access it. Primal rage. Ki. Divine Bloodline. A magical sword lobbed at them by a watery tart. Born on a different planet. Charles Atlas training regimen. I don't care. Show me how each of these origins touch the martial equivalent of the weave and I'll relent.

Why does the fighter's ability to do cool stuff have to be from an external power source?

The weave is just one settings explanation of one thing (magic) it doesn't have to be a a blanket way to explain abilities.

 

[Remathilis]

I give up. I tried to find a common ground by having fighters have some innate magical power to justify thier supernatural feats. You all aren't having it. Fighters I guess should throw mountains like their horseshoes, be invincible to mortal blows, fly, and shoot lazer beams out their arse and why? "Because I'm Batman!"

You have exhausted my good faith. I'll see my way out.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I give up. I tried to find a common ground by having fighters have some innate magical power to justify thier supernatural feats. You all aren't having it. Fighters I guess should throw mountains like their horseshoes, be invincible to mortal blows, fly, and shoot lazer beams out their arse and why? "Because I'm Batman!"

You have exhausted my good faith. I'll see my way out.

The actual problem is that the automatic response to 'Can we get something fun to do?' is 'LOL YOU WANT TO FLY AND THORW MOUNTAINS'

That is not 'finding common ground' or anything approaching 'good faith'.

Why does the fighter's ability to do cool stuff have to be from an external power source?

Because to many D&D Land isn't a Fantasy World but Earth with a thin veneer of magic lightly applied with a narrow brush.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I thought Commanding Presence and Tactical Assessment did?

Both of those were maneuvers that were added in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything and not actually present in the PHB. They were a significant improvement to the Battlemaster and are one of the many, many reasons I find Tasha's improves things a lot.

Cheers. Thanks for the specifics! It’s really helpful.

I guess my follow up would be if the fighter could have a suite of abilities - let’s call them ‘Powers’. And those powers were used by expending units of personal energy - let’s call them ‘Power Slots’. One of the 1st level powers was called “Leap” and allowed a person to jump three times higher than they normally could for about a minute. Would this not be a solution to the problem?

It's in the implementation. Why would a fighter be able to buff themselves or even someone else? And if they did why (a) would it have a verbal or material component, (b) why would it have a minute duration and (c) why would it be subject to counterspell? (And (d) why could they let someone else do it by touch?)

All spells are abilities. But not all abilities are spells - and spells have a very specific flavour with attached themes and limitations.

Now if you gave the fighter stamina points and one of the things they could spend stamina on through focusing and deep breathing would be to enhance their own jumping distance to the point of tripling it that wouldn't jar in the same way at all. Or to put things another way if leap was just jump then I'd find it possibly more jarring than you'd find automatic flying.

Or let’s say another ‘Power’ was called ‘False friend’ and allowed you to convince people to do things they wouldn’t otherwise do for a stranger, until they had chance to think about it. Would that not let them influence social situations like a wizard could

A lot depends on the implementation.

In other words, a rose by any other name, would smell as sweet.

Would a rose by any other name be as rosy?

 

[Aldarc]

I give up. I tried to find a common ground by having fighters have some innate magical power to justify thier supernatural feats. You all aren't having it. Fighters I guess should throw mountains like their horseshoes, be invincible to mortal blows, fly, and shoot lazer beams out their arse and why? "Because I'm Batman!"

You have exhausted my good faith. I'll see my way out.

I just don’t think that making everything magical or trying to find some source for their abilities does anything to fundamentally address the aforementioned issues. Without this magical power source explanation, this problem exists. With this magical power source explanation, the fundamental problems still persist. It’s not really a solution for anything so much as it sweeps the problem under a beautiful, well-woven rug and calls it cleaned.

 

[HammerMan]

I give up. I tried to find a common ground by having fighters have some innate magical power to justify thier supernatural feats. You all aren't having it. Fighters I guess should throw mountains like their horseshoes, be invincible to mortal blows, fly, and shoot lazer beams out their arse and why? "Because I'm Batman!"

You have exhausted my good faith. I'll see my way out.

I mean we except "because I'm magic"

so again I ask... if someone has a clip of a non magic movie hero doing it, a clip of a TV show character doing it without magic, a comic scan of batman/black cat/robin/black widow doing it" would that be okay for a martial character to do (maybe at high level only, and maybe costing something or x times per day)

edit: back when bashing 4e was a major edition war tactic someone said in the center of the universe is a powerbattery that powers all the martial characters... they thought it was such an insult but I found it funny

 

[Vaalingrade]

or x times per day

Ew. Daily power design. Please no.

 

[TwoSix]

I give up. I tried to find a common ground by having fighters have some innate magical power to justify thier supernatural feats. You all aren't having it. Fighters I guess should throw mountains like their horseshoes, be invincible to mortal blows, fly, and shoot lazer beams out their arse and why? "Because I'm Batman!"

You have exhausted my good faith. I'll see my way out.

This feels like more of a hard-magic/soft-magic divide issue. You want to quantify how "martial magic" works, but for a lot of the types of stories that support the high-powered martial trope (like a lot of mythology), magic doesn't really get quantified.

 

[HammerMan]

Ew. Daily power design. Please no.

I mean not my 1st choice... but if it meant things equal to 5th and 6th level spells in being intresting and power but fighters could only 1/day I would be happy.