D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Well to be fair, ENWorld is hardly representative of all D&D players. In a more general poll, I think it's likely a majority would be fine with the fighter as is.

My hunch is that the majority of players, especially the large swath of causual players would BOTH

1) be fine with the fighter as is
2) be fine with a mythic martial as an additional class option along side the fighter

There might be a large gravitation toward the mythic martial by casual players as I don't see them having a heart attack when presented with a concept that is pretty common place in fantasy fiction, movies, comics, etc. and by design the mythic martial will be closer to full spellcasters in power, versatility, and narrative control. But IMO the game would be better having both and letting the chips settle where they will.

It seems the only argument being presented that isn't a form of preferential gatekeeping is the resource argument -- developing and playtesting a mythic martial is a decent amount of work that could be used to produce more adventures, options for existing classes, etc.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Well to be fair, ENWorld is hardly representative of all D&D players. In a more general poll, I think it's likely a majority would be fine with the fighter as is.

1) Unlikely.

2) I'm not the one who decided to use statistics where only 41% agreed with my thesis, bro.

 

[Micah Sweet]

1) Unlikely.

2) I'm not the one who decided to use statistics where only 41% agreed with my thesis, bro.

Neither did I. But D&D is for everyone, not just the deep thinkers on this board.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Neither did I. But D&D is for everyone, not just the deep thinkers on this board.

Everyone but people who want a fighter with things to do and reasonable power levels.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Neither did I. But D&D is for everyone, not just the deep thinkers on this board.

Right, but nothing you've stated would give me reason to believe that any fighter improvements would reduce the average player's enjoyment thereof. The average player could vote that the fighter is fine as is, but then after seeing the improvements decide that they prefer it that way.

 

[HammerMan]

As far as what you want from WotC, I wouldn't hold your breath. They have no incentive to make the changes people seem to want. You're going to have to look outside the box.

or remind them I (and others are here) and then make an incentive...

 

[Neonchameleon]

Please pardon the double response, but wanted to circle back to something.

How in the heck are John McLane and Dwayne Johnson suitable exemplars for D&D martials? What is the most threatening thing either of them has fought in direct hand to hand combat in any movie? With McLame its just..people in every movie sometimes in 'large' groups of 2-4 at a time. With the Rock, near as I can tell from limited googling, the answer appears to be also people, though sometimes more and bigger people than McLame fights.

I'd say that John McClane was a tier 1 character (levels 1-5); I can just about imagine him taking on an ogre. And Dwayne Johnson's characters might (mind you might) be tier 2 (levels 6-10).

 

[HammerMan]

There are already several spell based solutions. We can look at spells like Zephyr Strike 1st level, Ranger only, no material or somantic components that lets the user move faster and avoid AOO.

Tashas give us the example of psychic spells that are themed around a particular approach.

I see no reason why there can’t be a selection of martial spells for the book of nine swords crowd. Have a fighter spell list if needed. Create a new subclass with slots if the Eldritch Knight really won’t do it.

Then stick a feat that can be taken multiple times to expand the impact of magic initiate. Second time it gives a second level spell and an additional 1st. So on so forth.

Problem solved.

Don't call them spells call them maneuvers, exploits, and that is a solid answer.

 

[Guest 7034872]

My hunch is that the majority of players, especially the large swath of causual players would BOTH

1) be fine with the fighter as is
2) be fine with a mythic martial as an additional class option along side the fighter

I think that's right. That's certainly the way I was in 2018-19.

There might be a large gravitation toward the mythic martial by casual players as I don't see them having a heart attack when presented with a concept that is pretty common place in fantasy fiction, movies, comics, etc. and by design the mythic martial will be closer to full spellcasters in power, versatility, and narrative control. But IMO the game would be better having both and letting the chips settle where they will.

[...]

It seems the only argument being presented that isn't a form of preferential gatekeeping is the resource argument -- developing and playtesting a mythic martial is a decent amount of work that could be used to produce more adventures, options for existing classes, etc.

These are reasons why I still say Mort's idea of somehow convincing WotC to send a mythic fighter class or sub-class to UA is such a good idea. Oodles of free playtesting data flow from that with no real cost I can see beyond spending a week or two drawing up the class/sub-class. Once that's done, send it to the masses and see what happens. I mean, why fight about this stuff when we can just test it and find out instead??

 

[TheSword]

Don't call them spells call them maneuvers, exploits, and that is a solid answer.

You can call them whatever you like