D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Oofta]

I've asked you to explain how you rationalize your examples as appropriate vs a D&D martial as they compare in their relative fictional contexts.

I've asked this because the fictional contexts are sooooooooo different. If your answer is just "well that what I prefer", that's fine, I guess, but it's not very persuasive.

Nothing I ever say will ever persuade anyone and will just lead to more accusations that I'm trying to "shout people down" or some such. What else can anyone offer other than our opinions? It's a game.

In any case, so long, farewell, [how the heck do you write al-vider-zein(?)], good night.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Nothing I ever say will ever persuade anyone and will just lead to more accusations that I'm trying to "shout people down" or some such. What else can anyone offer other than our opinions? It's a game.

In any case, so long, farewell, [how the heck do you write al-vider-zein(?)], good night.

Auf wiedersehen.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

The fact there were exploits at all was the big thing.

Just having Reaping Strike or Tide of Iron or Come and Get It (the progenitor of the stupid 'mind control' false argument) meant a lot to the class.

Yes that is another dimension if you mean that they got reliable ways to do things other than damage, meaning you knew that you could push as part of this action no matter what, etc. That is a big thing. But...

thats the thing... improving the fighter isn't some HUGE OMG thing...

give tthem (or a class like them) the 4e treatment... they still wouldn't be flying stopping time or breaking mountains... I would just ask you do late 4e when skill powers were a thing becuse even in 4e out of combat things were scarece on the fighter list.

I disagree a litte because the 5e Wizard is not the 4e Wizard. Part of the the reason the mythic martial is wanted and might need to be more mythic than the 4e Fighter is the 5e Wizard.

The reason the 25th level 4e Fighter felt good compared to the 25th level 4e Wizard I think was that neither could circumvent the resolution mechanics in "shenanigan ways".

And out of combat utility magic was treated more like a party resource, and skill challenges abtracted skill use to "contribution" rather than discrete actions.

 

[HammerMan]

I disagree a litte because the 5e Wizard is not the 4e Wizard. Part of the the reason the mythic martial is wanted and might need to be more mythic than the 4e Fighter is the 5e Wizard.

The reason the 25th level 4e Fighter felt good compared to the 25th level 4e Wizard I think was that neither could circumvent the resolution mechanics in "shenanigan ways".

And out of combat utility magic was treated more like a party resource, and skill challenges abtracted skill use to "contribution" rather than discrete actions.

where I can agree with you on the "what would be the best" I honestly think at this point throwing a bone to martial classes and gave them some intresting choices to do at level up and round by round that had some effect, it would be an improvement.

My perfect scenero is still 2e wizard with 4e fighter... yeah the 2e wizard can pull some real shenagins that the 4e fighter can never equal... but the 2e wizard has real lasting drawbacks and needs that fighter

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

where I can agree with you on the "what would be the best" I honestly think at this point throwing a bone to martial classes and gave them some intresting choices to do at level up and round by round that had some effect, it would be an improvement.

My perfect scenero is still 2e wizard with 4e fighter... yeah the 2e wizard can pull some real shenagins that the 4e fighter can never equal... but the 2e wizard has real lasting drawbacks and needs that fighter

Sure, but since we are just spitballing on message board might as well go for best!

Doesn't the Level Up Fighter do a decent job of throwing them a bone? I'd check it out if you haven't.

Ideally, I also would like some power down of the Wizard so that the martial doesn't have to come up so high but it just seems more unlikely than getting the mythic martial at this point.

That was actually a disapointment with Level Up for me. Although I can't say for certain since I haven't seen all the spell nerfs in play, it doesn't look like those nerfs offset the actual increase in class abilities given the Wizard vs. O5e. I guess you could play with O5e Wizard class abilties and A5e spells.

 

[Mort]

My perfect scenero is still 2e wizard with 4e fighter... yeah the 2e wizard can pull some real shenagins that the 4e fighter can never equal... but the 2e wizard has real lasting drawbacks and needs that fighter

I get where you're going, but the 2e wizard had some oomph. Between the summoning spells (well before concentration), charm spells without all the pesky restrictions and MUCH longer durations, and let's not forget 2e stoneskin - it was a big middle finger to the fighter!

 

[HammerMan]

not forget 2e stoneskin - it was a big middle finger to the fighter!

I may loose my 'fighters need to be better' card here, but I used to take a perverse glee letting a PC hit my NPC mage just to have them roll good damage and me to respond "pink, that one off my stone skin" for a 4th level spell slot that hasn't felt cool or useful in a while...

but yeah concentration can stay. I don't mind longer durations (especially with concertation added)

 

[Gammadoodler]

Nothing I ever say will ever persuade anyone and will just lead to more accusations that I'm trying to "shout people down" or some such. What else can anyone offer other than our opinions? It's a game.

In any case, so long, farewell, [how the heck do you write al-vider-zein(?)], good night.

Auf weidersehen (I think).

And it's hard to convince people if you don't try. You've had an opportunity to address specific reasons people(or at least I) do not understand your preference, and you've chosen not to. That is certainly your prerogative, but it is not the result of an unruly mob being unreasonable.

You are certainly welcome to participate as much or as little as you see fit. But where your preferences are supported by, "well that's just the way I like it", you should expect people to want to understand why that is and how it makes sense.

In either case, see you around.

 

[HammerMan]

does anyone form WotC follow at all on enworld these days? Last time I remember was mid 4e

 

[Mort]

I may loose my 'fighters need to be better' card here, but I used to take a perverse glee letting a PC hit my NPC mage just to have them roll good damage and me to respond "pink, that one off my stone skin" for a 4th level spell slot that hasn't felt cool or useful in a while...

but yeah concentration can stay. I don't mind longer durations (especially with concertation added)

I had a 2e magic user/thief. DM let in some guy playing a 2e psionisist (in Darksun). Player thought it would be "fun" to take down the "weakest" character (who he thought was me) and take his stuff. So he used some weird psionic power that let him store damage and release it all at once (DM even "helped" by letting him self harm and store the damage). Guy has this smirk on his face as he announces he hits me for something absurd (like 1000+ damage) and what am I going to do about it?

I just respond by looking at the DM and pointing out I have stoneskin up. Guys smirk changes to look of confusion and anger as the DM tells him his massive attack bounces off harmlessly. Player was never invited back, as he was a bad fit even for an "evil" campaign.