D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Oofta]

Auf weidersehen (I think).

And it's hard to convince people if you don't try. You've had an opportunity to address specific reasons people(or at least I) do not understand your preference, and you've chosen not to. That is certainly your prerogative, but it is not the result of an unruly mob being unreasonable.

You are certainly welcome to participate as much or as little as you see fit. But where your preferences are supported by, "well that's just the way I like it", you should expect people to want to understand why that is and how it makes sense.

In either case, see you around.

I tried. It got nowhere.

EDIT: this isn't directed at you specifically, but I just accept that I want different things from the game than some people do.

 

[TwoSix]

where I can agree with you on the "what would be the best" I honestly think at this point throwing a bone to martial classes and gave them some intresting choices to do at level up and round by round that had some effect, it would be an improvement.

My perfect scenero is still 2e wizard with 4e fighter... yeah the 2e wizard can pull some real shenagins that the 4e fighter can never equal... but the 2e wizard has real lasting drawbacks and needs that fighter

Personally, I'd go 4e fighter and 3e warmage.

 

[Mind of tempest]

does anyone form WotC follow at all on enworld these days? Last time I remember was mid 4e

we were mentioned as a source in a poll recently.

I had a 2e magic user/thief. DM let in some guy playing a 2e psionisist (in Darksun). Player thought it would be "fun" to take down the "weakest" character (who he thought was me) and take his stuff. So he used some weird psionic power that let him store damage and release it all at once (DM even "helped" by letting him self harm and store the damage). Guy has this smirk on his face as he announces he hits me for something absurd (like 1000+ damage) and what am I going to do about it?

I just respond by looking at the DM and pointing out I have stoneskin up. Guys smirk changes to look of confusion and anger as the DM tells him his massive attack bounces off harmlessly. Player was never invited back, as he was a bad fit even for an "evil" campaign.

that guy gives psionic lovers a bad name.

I tried. It got nowhere.

EDIT: this isn't directed at you specifically, but I just accept that I want different things from the game than some people do.

would you agree to the lack of versatility point as the fighter needs a bit more social and exploration?

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Sorry if you don't don't agree. I don't think there is a way to please everyone so I keep trying to bid y'all adios. So again ... adios.

Why do we need to agree? I'm fine with your preference existing in the game and you state that it already is manifest through the current Fighter or the Fighter with your suggestions.

Why isn't there room in the game for both your action hero and the mythic hero though? That would seem to please both everyone that is fine with the way things are and at least 5 more people from this thread.... X+5 pleased people is better than X?

 

[DND_Reborn]

IME that was the biggest problem with 4e. It played much better than it read and a whole lot of people refused to take the step to play it after looking at it.

Guilty as charged. I found a copy of 4E and tried reading through it after playing 5E and thought "What the heck is all this crap!?!" I mean, come on, way too much stuff going on IMO...

I would have to find a group who is already playing it and be willing to have them teach me how to play that version of D&D, which coming from someone whose played since 1979, and otherwise always been able to pick up on each new edition without issue, that is a very strange thought.

 

[Oofta]

Why do we need to agree? I'm fine with your preference existing in the game and you state that it already is manifest through the current Fighter or the Fighter with your suggestions.

Why isn't there room in the game for both your action hero and the mythic hero though? That would seem to please both everyone that is fine with the way things are and at least 5 more people from this thread.... X+5 pleased people is better than X?

What is a mythic hero to you? To me it's Hercules who was literally a demi-god, but that's not really a class. Mythic heroes that can redirect rivers or chop down mountains? Not sure how you'd establish rules for something like that other than "the DM decides what miraculous thing the PC does" because I don't know how you'd establish boundaries.

If you just want supernatural warriors, we already have those. So what would a mythic hero be to you? What niche would it fill?

 

[Mort]

What is a mythic hero to you? To me it's Hercules who was literally a demi-god, but that's not really a class. Mythic heroes that can redirect rivers or chop down mountains? Not sure how you'd establish rules for something like that other than "the DM decides what miraculous thing the PC does" because I don't know how you'd establish boundaries.

If you just want supernatural warriors, we already have those. So what would a mythic hero be to you? What niche would it fill?

A high level one? It's just difficult to have joe average and 10+ level in my head at the same time.

But, for me. it's not even that. The fighter has little to no base ability to contribute outside of combat - in a way that other classes can. Sure they can take a feat or a skill - but so can EVERY OTHER CLASS. and yes fighters get a few more ASI/feats but they really, need those to stay competitive in the one area they are supposed to be good at - combat.

Here's the thing, literary "fighters" get other stuff for exploration and social. Give them soldiering knacks (ability to forced march better, ability to stay awake longer, ability to rally troops regardless of actual charisma) give them social standing stuff beyond just "take the noble background" something that lets them stand out among the other classes but remain fighters. There's plenty of room between making them better in the other 2 tiers of play and making them demi-gods (though as a personal preference I think there is plenty of room for the mythic fighter too, but that's getting ahead of the current issue IMO).

 

[Azzy]

I give up. I tried to find a common ground by having fighters have some innate magical power to justify thier supernatural feats. You all aren't having it. Fighters I guess should throw mountains like their horseshoes, be invincible to mortal blows, fly, and shoot lazer beams out their arse and why? "Because I'm Batman!"

You have exhausted my good faith. I'll see my way out.

You don't find common ground by trying to force your hot take onto others. Then getting upset that it doesn't take and throwing around some overworn strawman doesn't sound like you were arguing in good faith to begin with.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So, I had dozens of pages to catch up on and I have one insight I'd like to share in case it hasn't come up:

Take John McClane and put him in a tier 4 adventure with fiends, adult (or older) dragons, and such, with wizards casting meteor swarm and shapechange, etc. All I can do is picture him saying:

Spoiler: Possibly offense content

Jesus Christ, what the f#ck is THAT thing!?! Holy sh!t! Please, God, don't let me die!

Not so much the famed Yippee-ki-yay, mother fucker! line...

So, while I don't think the fighter needs to be a super-hero, I am firmly in the camp of something needs to be done.

 

[Minigiant]

I really don't think the fighter needs fixing as much as it needs focusing.

Quite frankly I've seen Swordsmen and archers with no supernatural powers and little display of reality breaking in children's cartoons do more amazing feats than a 5e level 20 fighter and still have some out of combat skill. Shounen and seinen anime on the realistic end even do it And let's not get into realistic nonsuper Hollywood* action movies.

The overloading of archetypes and the obsession with base simplicity really reinforced the "load it up with magic items to be interesting"-itis.

Quite frankly, every martial class by a rule really should have at least 2 additions on their sheet every non-ASI nonSubclass level besides proficiency modifier, hit points, and "+x equal to your level" features. Humans over 10 years old should be able to handle learning or increasing 2 things each level up.


Rogue has 3 at level 1 and 1 at level 2 so it's a wash if you include SA increases on off levels. Barbarian manages to do it until level 13. Fighter fails at level 2.

*Just realized how fun a Bollywood Action movie fighter subclass would be.