D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Neonchameleon]

I've not actually crunched the numbers but I bet a wizard gearing up for damage in an actual long adventure day as you describe can outdamage a highly optimized str battlemaster fighter in a typical one of those days. At least by late tier 2.

A lot depends on what the enemies actually are. If you're fighting an endless succession of solos then I think the fighter wins. One fireball on a close packed formation on the other hand changes things a lot.

 

[FrogReaver]

A lot depends on what the enemies actually are. If you're fighting an endless succession of solos then I think the fighter wins. One fireball on a close packed formation on the other hand changes things a lot.

Also how many enemies utilize flying or movement to make the str battlemasters life misreable. How many start greater than move distance away from him. Whether they have ranged abilities that can restrain or knock him down. Etc.

I think the dex SS+CBE battlemaster likely wins at damage. But the str melee version is much more up in the air.

 

[Minigiant]

Imagine if this were the wizard

Arcanist Class

Level	Proficiency Bonus	Cantrips Known	Class Features
1st	+2	4	Spellcasting. Elemental Preference,
2nd	+2	4	Cantrip Burst (one use)
3rd	+2	4	Arcane Archetype
4th	+2	4	Ability Score Improvement
5th	+3	5	Intensify Cantrip
6th	+3	5	Ability Score Improvement
7th	+3	5	Arcane Archetype
8th	+3	5	Ability Score Improvement
9th	+4	5	Defensive Mysticism (one use)
10th	+4	6	Arcane Archetype
11th	+4	6	Intensify Cantrip (2)
12th	+4	6	Ability Score Improvement
13th	+5	6	Defensive Mysticism (two uses)
14th	+5	6	Ability Score Improvement
15th	+5	6	Arcane Archetype
16th	+5	6	Ability Score Improvement
17th	+6	6	Cantrip Burst (two uses), Defensive Mysticism (three uses)
18th	+6	6	Arcane Archetype
19th	+6	6	Ability Score Improvement
20th	+6	6	Intensify Cantrip (3)

As an arcanist, you gain the following class features.
Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d6 per arcanist level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 6 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6 (or 4) + your Constitution modifier per arcanist level after 1st
Proficiencies
Armor: None
Weapons: simple weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Intelligence, Wisdom
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, History, Insight, Intimidation, Medicine, and Religion
Equipment

You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

(a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) any simple weapon
(a) a component pouch or (b) an arcane focus
(a) a dungeoneer’s pack or (b) a scholar’s pack
(a) a dagger or (b) a staff

Spellcasting
A special event, a mystical ancestor, or an intense training program has infused you with arcane energy. This aspect of your life is the origin of your powers. See Spells Rules for the general rules of spellcasting and the Spells Listing for the arcanist spell list.
Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the arcanist spell list. You learn additional arcanist cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Arcanist table.
Spellcasting Ability

Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your arcanist spells, since the power of your magic relies on your mental quickness and sharp wit. You use your Intelligence whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for an arcanist spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier

Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus (see the Adventuring Gear section) as a spellcasting focus for your arcanist spells.

Elemental Preference
You have an affinity to a pair of elemental forces. Choose one of the following options. You can’t take a Elemental Preference option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.

Astral Fire
You gain +2 to damage rolls with cantrips that deal fire and radiant damage
Burning Blizzard
You gain +2 to damage with cantrips that deal acid and cold damage
Dark Fury
You gain +2 to damage rolls with cantrips that deal necrotic or psychic damage
Jagged Force:
You gain +2 to damage rolls with cantrips that deal force or poison damage
Raging Storm
You gain +2 to damage rolls with cantrips that deal lightning or thunder damage

Cantrip Burst
Starting at 2nd level, you can preform a quick flurry of magic. On your turn, you can take one additional action to cast a cantrip.
Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again. Starting at 17th level, you can use it twice before a rest, but only once on the same turn.

Arcane Archetype
At 3rd level, you choose an archetype that you strive to emulate in your combat styles and techniques. Choose Scourge, Wand Master, or Eldritch Knight, all detailed at the end of the class description. The archetype you choose grants you features at 3rd level and again at 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th level.

Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, and again at 6th, 8th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking this feature to take a feat of your choice instead.

Intensify Cantrip
Beginning at 5th level, you can reroll one of the damage dice of your cantrips and add it to your damage.
The number of dice rerolled increases to two when you reach 11th level in this class and to three when you reach 20th level in this class.

Defensive Mysticism
Beginning at 9th level, you can cast false life, mage armor or shield without expending a spell slot or material components. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest.
You can use this feature twice between long rests starting at 13th level and three times between long rests starting at 17th level.

 

[lingual]

I think the word "appease" is our own addition, and so introduces connotations that may not reflect reality.

This is a problem with giving precis of what people have said - word choice matters, and can gi

Yes. Folks who think EN World, or other online discussion, is representative need a bit of a refresher on statistics - we represent a self-selected sample, which then likely deviates significantly from the population at large in many ways.

We are

That's not the issue. The excluding a lot of other people to focus on what those people like it the problem.

WOTC is right 5o focus on wider demographics. They are a business and need to make a profit to stay in business. If they tried to design a game that satisfied everyone on these boards like this, they basically wouldn't have a game.

 

[lingual]

I am reminded of a scene from Critical Role, of all things.

The party was fighting some kind of flyer / floating creature. Everyone could attack the creature except the barbarian. That player sat on his hands the whole fight.

If he could have made an attack that could have stunned a wing so the creature had to land for a round, or aggro the critter in range, or do a limited wall-run to get him in range every other round, or something I can only imagine that the player, and the team, would have had a better time. Their heavy hitter was wholly useless.

Versatility is really the whole point of a wizard. People who play fighters don't expect that level of versatility in my experience. But they would like to be on par with other fighters in myth and legend.

(I don't concretely remember the episode. I do remember, clearly, Travis sitting on his hands while everyone else could participate.)

In all fairness, bows are cheap. Also in fairness I don't know the specifics of that episode.

 

[Minigiant]

In all fairness, bows are cheap. Also in fairness I don't know the specifics of that episode.

In all fairness, due to HP bloat and monster lethality at a certain point a nonspecialist archer stops having significant use.

Part of the practice of ABC "Always Be Casting" in MMORPGs, is that non-damage focused characters either did noticeable damage individually or collectively that them that them "always be casting" anything was help.

A trend of increase of damage, deadliness, and HP of monster since 3e has really neutered the contribution of characters outside of their specialty upon hitting the middle levels. That's typically how you know you'vehit middle levels in D&D for the past 20 years. Your nonspecialty actions start to be noticeably weak in result if a magic item isn't covering it

 

[Gammadoodler]

In all fairness, bows are cheap. Also in fairness I don't know the specifics of that episode.

It happened more than once in the chroma conclave arc. And his character even had a magic item that enabled throwing great weapons.

 

[Gammadoodler]

A lot depends on what the enemies actually are. If you're fighting an endless succession of solos then I think the fighter wins. One fireball on a close packed formation on the other hand changes things a lot.

Doesn't even really have to be packed that closely. @tetrasodium had peak level 20 dpr with no misses and gwm at 110 damage. Fireball at 8dd does 28 avg dmg per target (with no saves) which puts the break-even-plus-a-little-bit at 4 targets... vs the area of fireball which takes up like 44 squares (depending on how you draw your sphere).

So, if like 10% of your fireball aoe is occupied, you do a little better than break even against a lvl 20 fighters peak damage with feats and magic weapons..and you do it with a third level spell.

 

[FrogReaver]

Doesn't even really have to be packed that closely. @tetrasodium had peak level 20 dpr with no misses and gwm at 110 damage. Fireball at 8dd does 28 avg dmg per target (with no saves) which puts the break-even-plus-a-little-bit at 4 targets... vs the area of fireball which takes up like 44 squares (depending on how you draw your sphere).

So, if like 10% of your fireball aoe is occupied, you do a little better than break even against a lvl 20 fighters peak damage with feats and magic weapons..and you do it with a third level spell.

A Wizard that can on average hit 4 enemies with his fireballs and 2 enemies with his shatters (using all slots on those spells) will do pretty similar damage to a greatsword battlemaster with max str that spends every superiority dice on riposte, brace and near miss precision attacks and is always close enough to be able to attack with the greatsword on his turn. IMO, wizard will likely slightly outdamage such a level 7 battlemaster.

Start adding in feats, variant human and a +1 magic weapon and that wizard starts to fall behind very quickly.

I'm pretty confident that the wizard pre-level 7 is already far behind. Of course damage is not the best thing he can do so it's far from a perfect comparison, but at least it shows some fighter builds are able to maintain a niche.

 

[lingual]

My response was to the fact that the player was just "sitting on his hands". A barbarian can get 2 longbow shots per round. No it is not optimized but it beats sitting on their hands. I would assume he has a decent dexterity. If said barbarian can dish out 10 points of damage per round - that would add up and definitely be a contribution.

Also, flight should be a tactical advantage. The advantage is that you stay out of the big barbarian's melee range. That may have been the point of having a flying encounter.

I'm not sure what the proposed solution is in this case since I don't see a problem. If a character wants to optimize for melee to the point of not carrying missile weapons - well that's player agency. They have a concept in mind and hats off to them for sticking to it (weaknesses and all).