• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

I'm so glad this discussion just slipped into the usual combat power argument so nothing will get done.
It may be a quagmire, but it's probably the only argument that actually has logical weight. If martials are so badass in combat that casters can't touch them, can't even come close ever, then there is a legitimate argument that martials shouldn't get an upgrade.

As an argument it beats the heck out of:

"Well that kind of martial just isn't D&D to me..don't ask me why or for any additional detail whatsoever. I either dont have reasons or cant be bothered to provide them"

And...
"Think of the newbies and lazy players..if you make it too complicated, it'll melt their poor wittle brains"

And...
"You whining brats just want magical superpowers that will break the game"

And..
"Well if you can't totally agree on the specifics of the exact changes you want it than you must not want any change"

And..
"Just use skills man, they're like the same as spells"

And..
"You already have mythic martials, just use the casting subclasses."

And...my personal favorite..
"We're devoting all this time and energy discussing this game design topic I brought up in this thread I created, when we should be out solving all the social issues in the hobby."

It's kind of refreshing to discuss something that actually makes sense from a game design perspective.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

I thought earlier that you were against including racial feats. Unless I'm mistaken that's how a Tasha's custom lineage race wizard would achieve a 20 int and a feat by level 11? So just want to make sure we are on the same page.

*In principle I'm open to whatever racial options you want to go with.
I was mostly referring to narrowly race-specific things like the half-orc's crit boost or Elven Accuracy. Custom Lineage characters cannot take any race-specific feats as their race is Custom Lineage, even if they physically appear to be exactly the same as an Elf or whatever. I would normally have just chosen something with an Int bonus, but it's not possible to get both 20 Int and a regular (that is, not "half") feat at level 11. Just wanted to make clear why I was choosing that, as otherwise I would not have, and the feats I'm considering (almost certainly either War Caster or Elemental Adept) are not particularly crazy.

On the subject: it looks like I was derping (I blame the insomnia) and not realizing that spells like flame sphere and storm sphere are "Concentration spells that increase damage." I was thinking "buffs that cause damage to be higher" rather than "spells that must be concentrated upon to do repeated damage." So that's definitely a conversation we'll have to have.

On this note, I ask what you think is fair in regards to trip attack since it has a requirement the enemy be Large or smaller.
Few non-"solo" creatures are bigger than large IIRC--my sources indicate it's very roughly only 10% of all creatures, most of which seem to have the markings of being a "solo" or otherwise "mega-threat" type creature for their CR. So, although it may be a bit unrealistic/inaccurate, I'm cool with the narratively "lesser" creatures (the cannon-fodder and lieutenant types) are subject to it assuming a failed save, but all "solo"-type ones cannot be affected, assuming you are as well. If not we can be more precise about it. (In actual fact, I'm sure some solos are small enough to be affected and some minions too big, e.g. throwing the stegosaurus at the enemy while the mad scientist runs away, but this seems like a good simplifying metric that still represents both the benefits and the limitations.)

Sounds good. If you have any differently sized AOE's we need to bring up feel free. But if we can set the bounds on a small AOE and big one then hopefully the rest can be easily extrapolated from there.
Yeah. Will probably do that tomorrow since, as stated, I'm in a better way but have a lot on my plate today/tonight.

Sure. My initial thoughts would be to increase number of targets for an AOE by 0.5 due to the evokers level 2 ability. I could see it going a bit higher.
As a first past that seems fine.

Some people play that magic missile gets the evokers damage bonus to every dart and some play that it only applies to one dart. I can see the ability either way from RAW but i always play it applies to one dart.
AIUI, it has been explicitly clarified in Sage Advice that the Evoker damage bonus applies to only one damage roll, not to every missile. Same for scorching ray, for example. So we'll go with the more conservative estimate.

I wasn't super concerned with defenses beyond basic armor/shield for the fighter and mage armor and a few shield spells for the wizard. So personally I think it's safe to ignore defensive items. For magic weapons I think a +1 weapon should be default but I was going to run various scenarios with them for the Fighter. A +1 focus seems reasonable there as well.
Then we are of like mind. Cool.

I was going to do a ranged fighter, a melee fighter and possibly a hybrid range/melee fighter.
M'kay. In that case, I think I may end up doing Divination (as the more "generically powerful" Wizard), Evocation (as the "almost all damage, utility is what rituals are for" Wizard), and maybe War or Abjurer (as the "survivalist"-type Wizard).

I follow that. If we are talking movement though I think we need to think about enemy movement and OA's. There's quite a bit to explicitly account for there. Or we can just make a general statement like the amount of OA's a melee fighter gets to make will roughly make up for the attacks he doesn't get to make due to needing to get in range some rounds. Not perfect, but maybe reasonable enough while greatly simplifying calculations.
Yeah, let's just go with that. There's already a ton of calculations involved as it is. Again, a simplifying assumption, but the gain of precision would be at too great a cost of effort.

Since you mentioned above you were not planning on using concentration spells for damage i don't think we really need to focus on concentration checks and the possibility of losing concentration on one of those spells early. There's alot to consider if we were, from NPC targeting, to defenses, mobility/kiting, conentration save bonus, etc. If you change your mind and want to use a concentration spell for damage or self buffing let's iron something reasonable out for this at that time?

Also, are assuming 24 combat rounds and 2 short rests spread over 8 encounters?
See above on the Concentration thing. Given War Wizard specifically improves saves, it's probably a conversation worth having at some point, but not right now, my brain is still re-gelatinizing.

And yeah those numbers seem reasonable. To be clear, don't forget that you get any short-rest abilities at the end of a long rest too. I doubt you would forget, but hey, it's worth mentioning.
 

Well, all I have is the results of my poll:


Where over 40% think it is fine and nothing needs to be done.
To put it another way in the poll you choose to cite more than half of people think that there is a problem and something should be done about it. Thanks to the way you worded the poll there's just a split as to the hypothetical best course of action - but a majority thought that it was a problem that something needed doing something about and only a minority thought it was fine.
 

And I'm still gonna argue against that point. Warlock and Sorcerer being mechanically similar was the mistake, the thematic ideas of what they represent are so far-flung from each other they shouldn't even be vaguely recognisable as one another.
And I'm gonna argue against that premise. The sorcerer is at least to less mechanically similar to the warlock than it is to any of the wizard, the cleric, or the druid. Which all have the same number of spell slots allocated in the same way and recovered in the same way. And none of them have much resembling invocations. The main thing that differs between them in casting is what's on your active spell list and whether you can tweak it at a long rest.

If we're going to remove a thematically redundant spellcaster the top of the list should be the druid as a cleric subclass.
 

To put it another way in the poll you choose to cite more than half of people think that there is a problem and something should be done about it.
Correct.

Thanks to the way you worded the poll there's just a split as to the hypothetical best course of action -
Well, not "Thanks to the way" etc. I offered some of the methods to solve it, which were stated in the first thread.

but a majority thought that it was a problem that something needed doing something about and only a minority thought it was fine.
Also correct.

So, I am not sure what point you were trying to make...
 

If we're going to remove a thematically redundant spellcaster the top of the list should be the druid as a cleric subclass.
Druids as a D&D thing are massively far from what Clerics are today, it'd be doing a disservice to the druid concept to strap it on top of a chassis that offers.... Exactly 0 support for it, outside of the vague idea of "They're both devoted to an idea" and "Back in AD&D they were on the Cleric chasis (Albeit after you basically stripped everything out of it and the only parts left over were the HP and the XP track, so it basically was a seperate class even then)"

Saying "I want to play a character who turns into a bear" and then giving them a character chassis based around mail armor and hitting things with a mace isn't exactly what folks ask for
 

Druids as a D&D thing are massively far from what Clerics are today, it'd be doing a disservice to the druid concept to strap it on top of a chassis that offers.... Exactly 0 support for it, outside of the vague idea of "They're both devoted to an idea" and "Back in AD&D they were on the Cleric chasis (Albeit after you basically stripped everything out of it and the only parts left over were the HP and the XP track, so it basically was a seperate class even then)"

Saying "I want to play a character who turns into a bear" and then giving them a character chassis based around mail armor and hitting things with a mace isn't exactly what folks ask for

The druid and cleric are only far flung because of the spell list and their channel dvinities. On another univerese, a priest can choose a domain, spell list, and channel in it's 5th or 6th edition.

And one anther universe, 5th edition has more than 2 priest classes as more types of priestly adventurer archetypes of otherir religious groups are taken inspiration from.

But that's a whole different topic.
 

I'm so glad this discussion just slipped into the usual combat power argument so nothing will get done.
What's going to get done? WotC isn't going to do anything (certainly not based on comments from anyone here), and third party solutions for most, if not all of these problems already exist.
 


Based on the way the majority of ENWorlders play, a class that is 90% Combat and has little Out of Combat strength would mechanically be shut out 50% of their games.
Not really. I voted probably 50% of my games are combat, not including time talking and joking. But martials have unique out-of-combat utility in the form of being the most resistant to any given, random event that challenges their HP or AC, as well as most physical saves. In other words, they're good against traps, ambushes, hazards, and tests of endurance.

That's why the martials are always in the front guard (except maybe rogues/monks). If a cloud of Poisonous fog suddenly trips, the wizard is having a hard time concentrating on their spell while the fighter probably saved easily.

So they're being useful while also still not having to be hyper focused.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top