D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Guest 7034872]

Yeah but the Mystic's powers were a different story. I played in a game where the DM allowed a Mystic, over my reservations, and he soon regretted it. In addition to spamming a power that targeted the generally weak Int save for rarely resisted psychic damage, he broke a few encounters in half with wall of wood. Which I pointed out was better than any wall spell another caster could get at the same level.

I'm about to DM a party half of which are mystics because we're trying to see if that class can be tamped down to a level where it's playable. I mean, we're all pretty sure the answer is "No," but we've a hankering to try it anyway. I'm not too worried in my case just because we tend not to get competitive with each other: it's a highly collaborative, greater-good-oriented group. Still, one thing that's clear to everyone is that the mystic class is wildly broken as written, and not just because it has psi points instead of spell slots. There are so many disciplines in that UA pdf that are insanely strong.

To this day I still think one basic problem psionics has always had is that they work on raw mental juice, not slots or anything comparable. In an earlier campaign with the same group, I played a mystic who at 6th level unloaded FIVE Fireballs in a row and a Baleful Transposition on a sizable band of frost giants that we were never supposed to fight. We killed them all inside a minute of world-time combat (in game time it was probably a good fifteen minutes of hearty mayhem). Part of the problem there was the strength of the mystic disciplines, sure, but the most immediate problem I saw was that I could spend all that juice any way I wanted; no restrictions. Unless I'm suffering a memory failure (not the first time), 1e psionics was the same way: you spent your mental juice however it pleased you to spend it. It was broken way back then and it's broken now.

 

[Minigiant]

o this day I still think one basic problem psionics has always had is that they work on raw mental juice, not slots or anything comparable

That's not the problem. The problem is "Raw Mental Juice" and "Slot based Spells" don't mix.

It's like making Extra Weapon Attacks work off Slots. You are combining elements that don't go together in narrative nor pacing. For ease of learning.

Then the shortcut blows up in our faces yet again

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I'm about to DM a party half of which are mystics because we're trying to see if that class can be tamped down to a level where it's playable. I mean, we're all pretty sure the answer is "No," but we've a hankering to try it anyway. I'm not too worried in my case just because we tend not to get competitive with each other: it's a highly collaborative, greater-good-oriented group. Still, one thing that's clear to everyone is that the mystic class is wildly broken as written, and not just because it has psi points instead of spell slots. There are so many disciplines in that UA pdf that are insanely strong.

To this day I still think one basic problem psionics has always had is that they work on raw mental juice, not slots or anything comparable. In an earlier campaign with the same group, I played a mystic who at 6th level unloaded FIVE Fireballs in a row and a Baleful Transposition on a sizable band of frost giants that we were never supposed to fight. We killed them all inside a minute of world-time combat (in game time it was probably a good fifteen minutes of hearty mayhem). Part of the problem there was the strength of the mystic disciplines, sure, but the most immediate problem I saw was that I could spend all that juice any way I wanted; no restrictions. Unless I'm suffering a memory failure (not the first time), 1e psionics was the same way: you spent your mental juice however it pleased you to spend it. It was broken way back then and it's broken now.

That's an issue with giving the class their full daily allotment up front. Designing it as an at-will/short rest class better fits the x-men archetype and helps prevent 5 minute work days.

 

[Guest 7034872]

That's not the problem. The problem is "Raw Mental Juice" and "Slot based Spells" don't mix.

Okay, I can buy that, but it doesn't really change my opinion. 5e works on spell slots and I see no likelihood of it doing otherwise. (I know there's that optional alternative system that no one ever uses, but um...no one ever uses it, right?) So given that spell slots are here to stay and given that the mystics' disciplines are as powerful as and often more powerful than what regular casters get, the class becomes wildly OP somewhere right around level 1 and stays that way at least until level 10 or 11.

I studied all the older versions of the 5e mystic when I became curious about it because all the way since 1e I have loved psionics AND seen no workable way of keeping them in the D&D system. The first UA stab at the mystic was informatively under-powered and spartan in its range of abilities. They kept re-working it and re-working it until by 2018 the mystic made the bard look like a weenie who just couldn't keep up.

We killed off FIVE frost giants and hardly suffered a scratch. At L6. That is simply too much.

 

[Azzy]

EDIT: I still don't understand why extra books is considered a problem. You don't have to use them. You don't have to buy them. It's just an option, it's existence shouldn't hurt the game in any way, save from some theoretical optimization approach. If the DM clears Magic of Eberron and Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon for his campaign, that's certainly not the fault of the authors. Sure, maybe they wrote some hot garbage, but then the DM takes out the trash.

Because, when books come out at the pace they did for 2e, 3e, & 4e that creates that problem "hot garbarge" as there is less time for playtesting and quality control are more scraping the bottom of the barrel. DMs should not have to do WotC quality control work.

 

[Yora]

The current Warlock flavor is a mess. Does the pact grant magical capability allowing the Warlock to "cheat" (like a Sorcerer) or does the Warlock have to study magic anyway (like a Wizard) and do the hard work?

Folding the Sorcerer flavor into the Warlock clarifies the magical flavor.

Warlocks look up the step by step instructions for spells on patron.stackexchange.com and get a result that is acceptable to them, though not necessarily quite what they wanted.
They don't know anything about coding their own spells.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Because, when books come out at the pace they did for 2e, 3e, & 4e that creates that problem "hot garbarge" as there is less time for playtesting and quality control are more scraping the bottom of the barrel. DMs should have to do WotC quality control work.

you forgot the not in you should not.

 

[James Gasik]

Still don't have to buy it though, if you feel like you have enough books, does the meh quality of the complete cheese makers handbook matter?

 

[Minigiant]

That's an issue with giving the class their full daily allotment up front. Designing it as an at-will/short rest class better fits the x-men archetype and helps prevent 5 minute work days.

Fatigue always felt like a short rest/encounter thing mostly to me.. Doesn't matter if physical spiritual or mental.

 

[HammerMan]

They’re just different spells. They’re spells, but from a different source and maybe a lil weird, but not really that special.

depends...
in 2e psionics were so different there were no comparison to spells. in 4e they had a break away system very different then the regular AEUD set up.

now 3e you could argue was refluffed spells with spell points instead of slots... and you would be mostly right. (although I would argue psychic feats were unque.

In 5e you are 100% correct there is nothing special just more spells. My diviner can learn every 'psychic spell'