D&D General Thinking about Cantrips (building from 3.5/PF/4e/5e/A5E)

[HammerMan]

So, thinking about Cantrips for a world that isn't designed to be too magical (say spells cap out at 3rd or 4th level usually and magic isn't directly widely integrated into day to day life of most people to the point that stereotypical medieval level tech and commerce seems strange to have)...

yeah I DON'T see D&D (any edition) as a real medieval setting, any more then I see Harry Potter or Harry Dresden as a modern setting. They are HIGH Fantasy takes on those with anachronisms and out right just strange things.

The Artificer and Warlocks really cement those thoughts

In PF, 4e, and 5e, the cantrips have the unified idea of the things the wizard knows well enough to just do. (Whereas in 3.5 they're just adding a 0-level to the usual Vancian thing). The power level of the three with actual cantrips seems to go 4e < PF < 5e.

tbf 4e ALSO had damage at wills (magic missle, heck scorching burst we used to call 'I can't believe it's not fireball'

It feels odd to me to be able to cast any of them for hours on end with no side effect. I mean, sure, the warrior can do that with sword swings, but I don't picture a market for that like there might be for light spells or mending. And for the more potent firebolt or acid splash, it doesn't seem to fit with a lot of the inspirational fiction I'm used to.

I don't know. In most stories (out side of dying earth by jack vance) we don't see casters really need to prep or strain to cast that much... and like you said, fighters swing an axe all day.

What if the cantrips used something like the exertion pool that martial characters use to power combat maneuvers in A5e?

Dont know what that is, but sure you could limit them... my first gut reaction would be Int mod + prof times per short rests, with 1 combat one remaining at will (be honest after 1st level 5+ times per short rest is pretty much at will... and at 20th that is 11 times each per short rest)

• As the caster levels, gradually being able to add 1st level spells to the cantrip list?

this I love. especially I think Detect Magic should be an at will

 

[bedir than]

Magic weapons and the mechanics of them are very much within RAW, as is the simple fact of who does more damage when between weapon users & can trip casters . What are you trying to say?

The assumption that every martial will get the exact weapons to maximize their build isn't supported by RAW.

Whereas damaging cantrips are explicitly unlimited, explicitly increasing in damage, explicitly with riders. None of that is true for a weapon attack. We don't need to pretend it is

 

[HammerMan]

my default is to remake wizards/clerics/Bards/sorcerers/druids (all full casters) as half casters... sort of.

Take the warlock chasie, a small handful of spells per short rest, 1 really good damage cantrip, and then give them mini feats to get other ways to get at wills (including things like Detect magic, maybe even detect thoughts, but the speak w/____s)(pactt of the tome gettting ritual caster 'all' and a handful of out of class cantrips. Do this with the artificer chart of what levels they can cast (so again 5th or 6th level spells max)

where does this leave the warlock... shrug, no clue. but artificer infusions and warlock invocations I think is the way to go for more limited low magic

 

[tetrasodium]

The assumption that every martial will get the exact weapons to maximize their build isn't supported by RAW.

Whereas damaging cantrips are explicitly unlimited, explicitly increasing in damage, explicitly with riders. None of that is true for a weapon attack. We don't need to pretend it is

You are placing the goalposts on rollerskate's and zipping them about. None of that was implied. The only build specific element in post 21 was dueling fighting style & tashas even introduced rules to change fighting styles. Even if the fighting style is not changed though the disparity is great enough that the cantrip user in that example still loses to an option the martial wasn't built to maximize

 

[payn]

PF2e cantrips are even more powerful that 1e, though perhaps it balances out with 5e since they gain in power, more or less, with each slot level gained. So the cantrip electric arc deals 1d4+spellcasting mod to up to 2 targets, at level 5 this would be 3d4+spellcasting mod. There are some differences, acid splash gains in power every other increase but it also deals splash damage and if it cries it deals a small amount of persistent acid damage. You can also cast them at will as in 5e. I'm sure the damage is in line with expected numbers in PF2e but it would still fail for expected output for those that think it spellcasters shouldn't be able to continually cast them.

Another thing with PF2 is that cantrips are often better than the actual spells in severe/extreme fights. A lot of this has to do with the +/lvl system since it makes higher level foes have massive defenses. For some, this makes the game more tactical, and gives martials a stronger feel in combat. For me though, it feels strange for cantrips to outshine higher level spells.

I did like it better in 5E than I thought I would. In past editions, it was always a guessing game as to which spells to prep for the day. With unlimited attack cantrips it took the pressure to prep offensive spells off a bit, so utility spells felt better prepping.

My point I guess, is that cantrips are not just a fictional element in the game. Playing around with how they work makes system differences that also need to be considered.

 

[Jer]

Okay, I've been wondering about this for years, but I've always kept my mouth shut because I don't think I'm informed enough about the different D&D editions to make this judgment. What I've wondered--and it relates to the complaints about casters being overpowered--is the following: what would happen if the game got rid of all damage-dealing cantrips?

In the old days what happened was the low level wizard was a small sack of meat that needed to be protected by the fighters and could contribute to the battle sometimes by throwing a dagger every once in a while and maybe getting a lucky hit in. If you were a wizard whose DM "allowed" you to pick your own spells or if you rolled randomly well enough, you could throw out a sleep spell to shut down a single battle.

If you could get your sack of meat to survive until 5th level then you were far enough into the exponential curve that by that point you could start out fighting the fighter in battles, but since a) wizards needed more XP to get to 5th level and b) lots of games didn't last much beyond 5th level you often didn't get to see that part of the curve.

In 3e it got a bit better in that wizards were allowed to use crossbows (poorly) and the unified XP table meant that you got to 5th level when everyone else did and as a consequence you got that part of the power curve. But the first few levels even in 3e are still basically hiding behind the fighter as judiciously using your spells only when needed until you are far enough into the exponential curve to start making an impact.

If the game went back to such a model, wouldn't many of the complaints about overpowered casters kind of go away? Because in this case the martial classes really would be needed. Or am I misremembering this and damage-dealing cantrips were in there right from 1e??? I just don't recall ever seeing them, you know?

No, because the problem that damage dealing cantrips solve is a low level problem while casters don't get overpowered until higher levels. The damage from cantrips scales roughly the same as the damage that fighters do (actually IME through at least level 10 the fighters are out damaging any caster that is primarily using cantrips to attack instead of using more powerful spells - since I have one caster who will only use cantrips until it absolutely becomes necessary that she use a slot to cast a spell and I watch this dynamic in action).

It's the impact of unlimited ranged weapons that is off-putting to me, still after so many years of 5e. The combat cantrips "so they don't just keep using a crossbow" are more effective than any crossbow.

Is this really an impact in play rather than in theory? I've never had a game where players ran out of ammo even when we actually track it. I could have exceptional players who are on the ball and always calculate how much ammo they should buy, but given that the group I'm thinking of actually managed to enter a dungeon without anyone putting rope on their character sheet I highly doubt it.

 

[Helldritch]

In years of playing, I never had an archer close to say "I about to fire my last arrow". At four arrows per round, an archer needs 40 arrows to last 10 rounds. Two quivers are enough. A friend can carry some more and the mending cantrip ensure that more arrows are recovered after every fights. At higher levels, a bag of holding or a quiver of Ehlonna will make sure that you will never have a lack of amunitions.

Also, it is often seen that an archer learn the skill.bowyer/fletcher and make replacement arrows/munitions during travel time and during rests.

If you want to see more martial and less casters or less multiclassing into casting make cantrips level with class level and not total levels. These 1 or two level dips of paladinlock and sorlock will disappear very fast.

And maybe bring back minimum stat to cast certain spell levels might do. Int minus 10 would tell you the maximum level you could hope to cast. Or put a minimum stat to actually be able to do a class. A pure caster might need a 15 in its relevant stat? A half.caster might need only a 13. This would further reduce the amount of casters and half casters.

 

[HammerMan]

In years of playing, I never had an archer close to say "I about to fire my last arrow". At four arrows per round, an archer needs 40 arrows to last 10 rounds. Two quivers are enough. A friend can carry some more and the mending cantrip ensure that more arrows are recovered after every fights. At higher levels, a bag of holding or a quiver of Ehlonna will make sure that you will never have a lack of amunitions.

this is why I stopped tracking it... like, if YOU want to, cool, if not cool too. Everytime I say "We are going to track XXX" it just turns into a race to find ways that you never run out of XXX... time that could be spent doing other things.

 

[HammerMan]

Speaking as someone who only plays martial character most of the time, even I would have preferred if they'd pick one of the ''nerf'': less slots OR no auto-scaling with level.

I personally dislike that cantrips, the lesser of all spells, can auto-scale to beat the damage of slot-restricted spells.

Maybe one option could have been to reduce the spell slots like they did, and have the spells auto-scale, but not with the caster's level, but with their Proficiency bonus.

Ex: a fireball deals 5d6 + 1d6 per PB point. Magic missile is 1 missile + a number of missile equal to PB.

yeah, is there a reason that most cantrips can't just scale with stat?

Fire bolt starts as 1d8 fire... at level 5 becomes 1d8+int mod fire. at level 11 becomes 1d10+int mod fire, at level 17 become 2d8+int mod fire.

Heck make eldritch blast start t 1d8, and still give it an extra attack at 5,11,and 17 but add the +cha mod right in from the start

 

[tetrasodium]

yeah, is there a reason that most cantrips can't just scale with stat?

Fire bolt starts as 1d8 fire... at level 5 becomes 1d8+int mod fire. at level 11 becomes 1d10+int mod fire, at level 17 become 2d8+int mod fire.

Heck make eldritch blast start t 1d8, and still give it an extra attack at 5,11,and 17 but add the +cha mod right in from the start

That doesn't actually accomplish much to fix the problem. Wotc pointed at a problem that existed in 3.x under some conditions & identified a few ways that they could each address it individually then implimented all of them