D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Minigiant]

Let me try to clarify my position, yes? I don't think psionics can work reasonably in the current system for most of the same reasons it didn't work in 1e: too flexible and powerful to keep things challenging and fun for all.

I think the problem is more that some people want the number of effects and abilities of a spellcaster.

I believe having a total of 12-20 total flexible and scalable psionic abilities and limiting character to 2-5 is enough.

Trying to make the Psion a wizard replacement is what causes problems as it forces you to put spells and spell ideas into nonspell nonslot systems.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I did not say that nor did I imply that. I suspect perhaps we're talking past each other at this point and failing to see each other's ideas.

Let me try to clarify my position, yes? I don't think psionics can work reasonably in the current system for most of the same reasons it didn't work in 1e: too flexible and powerful to keep things challenging and fun for all. The number of ways to work magic is not the issue for me at all (though there already are at least three distinct ways of casting magic, not just one); the issue, rather, is that the kind of flexibility psionics bestows is too great for them to balance well in a system where (IMO) flexibility is king. I mean, isn't flexibility what makes the bard the bard? And isn't the bard the one that everyone else loves to hate for just that reason? (Though I actually like bards myself...)

Like I said above, we've been toying around with different ways of taming the mystic class, but so far the age-old problem has remained: either I have to make them so weak that they're mere support staff, or else just beyond that point they suddenly become too powerful and leave everyone else in the dust. I don't say this cannot be fixed; I only say we've tried to fix it, and so far it's a no-go.

bard is bad because they gave a skill monkey full casting it is too powerful with both that is the problem, not some generic flexibility.

 

[Jer]

Trying to make the Psion a wizard replacement is what causes problems as it forces you to put spells and spell ideas into nonspell nonslot systems.

Also trying to make a wizard replacement is a bad idea because the wizard already does too much. It's a really unfocused class compared to the other 5e classes and using it as a starting point is probably not the right place to start looking.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Also trying to make a wizard replacement is a bad idea because the wizard already does too much. It's a really unfocused class compared to the other 5e classes and using it as a starting point is probably not the right place to start looking.

I say it should be the equivalent of the druid or cleric for the none god loving.

 

[Jer]

I say it should be the equivalent of the druid or cleric for the none god loving.

That's an interesting take - I always think of the Sorcerer as a balancing point for psionics but balancing against the Cleric is worth thinking about.

 

[Hussar]

PHB
XGTE
TCOE
Fixban
Everything in 3e except TOB, Complete Adventurer, Complete Divine, and the Nature book.

That's not an answer.

What specifically is the problem here? Because, as far as I see, and apparently most everyone else as well, there is no power creep. The spread between caster and non-caster is largely a non-issue. The whole "tier" thing exists mostly as a thought exercise and whiteboard theory crafting.

IOW, no one is complaining about what you seem to be complaining about. Your one actual concrete example - that allowing wizards to cast Psychic damage spells is overpowered, is easily shown to be false. Clerics have a cantrip that no one is resistant to, and in fact lots of things are vulnerable to (Radiant damage) and no one claims that clerics are overpowered.

 

[Hussar]

Why does all player facing magic have to be a spell with you guys?

Why is at will power + resource augment so unacceptable? The mystic was on the right track for something that actually felt mechanically unique.

Because it makes things so much easier.

I can add psionic effects to any monster with casting ability without pause. How much is an "at will power plus resource augment" worth? I have to rewrite a fair chunk of the monster - granting it an entire subsystem that isn't compatible with the existing casting system, just for a creature that's going to act three or four times? Not going to happen.

Keeping everything as spells makes balance so much simpler - you simply judge the power of a power based on the spells, so, a psionic effect simply slots into the existing spell list - just like they've already done.

There is no real justification for adding a new subsystem here. It's just not needed.

 

[Faolyn]

I'm not even sure there's a point to the Sorcerer anymore, since the other casters ate some of their versatility by allowing you to prepare a myriad of spells and then let you decide what slots to use on the fly. Like, ok, you get powers because your grandpappy dated a dragon. Your class features aren't any better than what a Wizard gets, so your one unique thing is Metamagic, which is fantastic, but you'll run out of Sorcery points fast while the Wizard easily has five times as many spells they can choose from each day.

And since anyone apparently can get magic powers from some shady guy offering pacts in a dark alley, they're not even all that special in-universe either.

I for one wouldn't mind it if 6e got rid of sorcerers altogether, included a psion, and gave metamagics back to wizards in one form or another.

 

[Scruffy nerf herder]

Yes, it is just magic. If you levitate things with your mind, it is magic. But for some reason some people want a completely separate parallel magic system because they have found a different word for magic. 'Psionics' is just a word Victorians came up when calling things 'magic' became too embarrassing.

In this game channelling power of gods or nature, learning complex magical formula, being born with dragon blood, making pacts with devils and the power of rock 'n roll all use the same basic magic system. It is ludicrous idea that vaguely defined 'psionics' would somehow be more different to all of them than they're from each other.

Is it cool that way? Do the players like it? Then why does it matter?

And has it perhaps occurred to you that the entire reason people want Psionics to work different than other magic is that they think the game could use something similar to magic which works differently?

Longinus, the game is full of ludicrous ideas. Dragons don't make sense. Races that live for thousands of years doesn't make sense. The fact that there's even magic at all doesn't make sense.

 

[Stormonu]

There is one way to do weapons. All the classes use the same basic combat mechanics.

Well, not quite - Ranged vs. Melee is two ways