If it's "crunch" that you want, where do you want it and why?

[Thomas Shey]

I don't know, I think people learn their attitude toward things like this when they enter the hobby and learn the rules various games, and its modified over time by other factors in their life or the culture of play they surround themselves with, like I don't think 'complexity essentialism' where players have a preset viewpoint on ease of use or sense of empowerment necessarily holds water. I think tolerance for complexity is largely taught, although its source can be outside the hobby itself (which is why some people bounced off DND editions before 5e and some people didn't.)

It also turns on kinds of complexity. As I've noted before, your tolerance for exceptions versus overall complexity can really color your views here.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

It also turns on kinds of complexity. As I've noted before, your tolerance for exceptions versus overall complexity can really color your views here.

True, and a lot of that, from an instructional design perspective, is actually affective in nature. In other words it has to do with how the learner feels about the material, whether they find it intimidating, how they think about their time or the task of learning it, and how they compare themselves to individuals who already posess the knowledge.

For some people, it can be a matter of identity where they want it to be dense and challenging so they feel special for mastering it, but for others they need to feel like its lite because they don't see themselves as being capable of something complicated, or not having "the time."

So one element is actually building confidence. Exceptions based systems can be pretty good at that, since you can remind people they dont need most of the rules for their character, just a slice of them-- it helps them realize they can take it a step at a time.

 

[Thomas Shey]

So one element is actually building confidence. Exceptions based systems can be pretty good at that, since you can remind people they dont need most of the rules for their character, just a slice of them-- it helps them realize they can take it a step at a time.

Though I'm not sold on that being true for anyone playing a spellcaster (the place where the exception based design has pretty much always been thick on the ground). And its not like effect based systems can't have templates and the like to make it easy for a new player to slot in.

The question, in part, is how much a problem someone has with that complexity even existing in the rules set. As you say, either form of it can perform a solid perception hit depending on the person.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Though I'm not sold on that being true for anyone playing a spellcaster (the place where the exception based design has pretty much always been thick on the ground). And its not like effect based systems can't have templates and the like to make it easy for a new player to slot in.

The question, in part, is how much a problem someone has with that complexity even existing in the rules set. As you say, either form of it can perform a solid perception hit depending on the person.

Yeah, it varies within the game, its why when we bring someone into Pathfinder 2e there's classes I would and wouldn't suggest for a first timer-- the wall isn't insurmountable at all if the person wants, but by default I make sure they know the degree of internal complexity between say, a Rogue and a Swashbuckler. Similarly casting is always an 'extra' subsystem.

But then again, you can make casters work easily enough by offering them a training-wheels approach to spell prep, I have a buddy whose somewhat rules-phobic (but is a digital project manager at a major defense contractor, and enjoys a suite of complex board games, and is perpetually bored to emphasize how little this has to do with ability or even time) but wanted a sorcerer, so when we made their character, I basically created a 'canned' spell selection where I chose some spells based off what they wanted to do (damage.)

Further, its very easy to get by on one or two go-to spells if you want, its not optimal, but you'll pull your weight with something like Magic Missile spam. So even casters aren't that bad.

 

[aramis erak]

I'm always amused at people who can't distinguish between a crutch and a tool.

One is a subset of the other. A crutch is a specific type of tool. Probably one of the oldest.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, it varies within the game, its why when we bring someone into Pathfinder 2e there's classes I would and wouldn't suggest for a first timer-- the wall isn't insurmountable at all if the person wants, but by default I make sure they know the degree of internal complexity between say, a Rogue and a Swashbuckler. Similarly casting is always an 'extra' subsystem.

But then again, you can make casters work easily enough by offering them a training-wheels approach to spell prep, I have a buddy whose somewhat rules-phobic (but is a digital project manager at a major defense contractor, and enjoys a suite of complex board games, and is perpetually bored to emphasize how little this has to do with ability or even time) but wanted a sorcerer, so when we made their character, I basically created a 'canned' spell selection where I chose some spells based off what they wanted to do (damage.)

Further, its very easy to get by on one or two go-to spells if you want, its not optimal, but you'll pull your weight with something like Magic Missile spam. So even casters aren't that bad.

Any kind of prepared caster is going to start looking pretty sad if the player isn't willing to engage with the spell list at least somewhat. They might be able to get by at the bottom with minimal attention, but that's going to become less and less true over time. Even MM stops being a particularly useful choice at some point (though PF2e's upgrade path helps for a while).

 

[Thomas Shey]

One is a subset of the other. A crutch is a specific type of tool. Probably one of the oldest.

Yes, but a crutch implies a lack of ability to operate without it, while a tool implies ability to get more use out of what you already have. The semantic loading is non-trivial.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Any kind of prepared caster is going to start looking pretty sad if the player isn't willing to engage with the spell list at least somewhat. They might be able to get by at the bottom with minimal attention, but that's going to become less and less true over time. Even MM stops being a particularly useful choice at some point (though PF2e's upgrade path helps for a while).

Well specifically I played a Spellblending Wizard to high level, I mostly relied on a relatively constrained spell list-- Magic Missile kept up for quite a while, and I mixed it in with fireball for the levels it didn't heighten. It works fine provided you replace which spells you're using as the low level ones fall off, but the couple of spells you do use can be prepared almost uniformly and you'll probably keep up alright, maybe throw in low level true strike so you can spam disintegrate when it comes online.

I eventually replaced Fireball with Horrid Wilting and worked in Chain Lightning, and then of course Meteor Swarm.

 

[aramis erak]

Yes, but a crutch implies a lack of ability to operate without it, while a tool implies ability to get more use out of what you already have. The semantic loading is non-trivial.

Perhaps in ways other than you realize; my first thought with Crutch is "social weapon" more than "needed tool due to disability."

Perhaps I've known a few too many malingerers... also note: I've spent more than two years of my life on crutches due to need. And as soon as possible, I've gotten off of them. Except once...

In order, my thoughts on crutch are:
Social Weapon
Enabling tool
Indicator of disability.

ANd I don't think of the disability - in fact, during the summer of my foot surgery, I stayed on crutches not because I needed them to get to class, but because they meant I could cut my time to class in half over normal walking, let alone the longer walk without. (I was supposed to be in a wheelchair, but crutches did me just fine.)
Also, being on crutches got a lot of unasked for assistance... especially at the smoking area between classes.
The semantic loading isn't going to be the same for others; reliance upon shared semantic loading is a crutch of its own which, if you lean upon it too often, will cause your fall...

 

[Scruffy nerf herder]

Perhaps in ways other than you realize; my first thought with Crutch is "social weapon" more than "needed tool due to disability."

Perhaps I've known a few too many malingerers... also note: I've spent more than two years of my life on crutches due to need. And as soon as possible, I've gotten off of them. Except once...

In order, my thoughts on crutch are:
Social Weapon
Enabling tool
Indicator of disability.

ANd I don't think of the disability - in fact, during the summer of my foot surgery, I stayed on crutches not because I needed them to get to class, but because they meant I could cut my time to class in half over normal walking, let alone the longer walk without. (I was supposed to be in a wheelchair, but crutches did me just fine.)
Also, being on crutches got a lot of unasked for assistance... especially at the smoking area between classes.
The semantic loading isn't going to be the same for others; reliance upon shared semantic loading is a crutch of its own which, if you lean upon it too often, will cause your fall...

Now that you're talking about literal crutches, it reminds me how characters with physical disabilities can be fun and interesting. I've always been fond of sometimes adding more severe kinds of flaws to my own PCs in order to explore how that "flaw" can be a positive story telling element.