D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[Yaarel]

I doubt you can get a consistently approved and desired singular approach. I don't think a single approach would get universal support from even half of the people on these boards.

That is one of the challenges of the psionic fandom. We are so diverse.

Most of time, there is no problem when each of us can find the particular options we are looking for.

But we need to get on the same page with regard to how psionic and arcane interact with each other. Because, this interaction is game engine mechanics, not just setting flavor.

As for what the lore should be, despite a majority of people disagreeing with it, I'd say the best they can do is set themselves up to win people over. The best way to do that is to appease a dedicated group of players that will be willing to pay for psionic related material. One group known to spend a lot of money on books consistently are long term gamers, and the best way to appear long term gamers is to appeal to their sense of tradition and history. To that end, I'd build psionics ... how I built psionics in my setting: Based upon the lore and traditions of old.

Heh. Of course, the "best" way is the way one oneself wants it anyway.



To predict the most succesful approach for 5e psionics, lets look at the success of 5e generally.

Old school 1e inspires 5e. But in important ways, 5e is unlike 1e. Heh, 5e takes the mechanics of AD&D 1e and 2e, throws it into an incinerator, and never looks back. Yet, somehow, 5e retains the feel of old school playstyles despite the mechanics differing.

To succeed, psionics must allow for how D&D evolves and adapt to the sensibilities of today, even when drawing inspiration from the past.

There is an added complication, because old school psionics failed. Most 1e gamers refused to use psionics, and 2e gamers rejected it officially. Lets face it, in an era when most gamers were comfortable with scifi technobabble in their D&D, the main reason they rejected psionics is because the psionic mechanics were horrifying. Look at how ad hoc the normal old school mechanics are. For these gamers to find psionic mechanics objectionable is remarkable.

Yet psionics adds something vital to D&D. D&D feels incomplete without it. Here we are today, almost 50 years later, and we feel a palpable loss because now 5e is still missing a sufficient presence of psionics.

Even back then during 2e, there was regret for having eliminated psionics, and they experimented with psionics in the form of new mechanics for the Psionicist class. But then 3e rejected 2e psionics. Why? Because the experimental mechanics too often ruined the game.

My impression is, 3e enjoyed the most successful version of psionics. It was an era when gamers were truly fed up with the old school vancian spell preparation. There was a need for a real alternative that wasnt the "red headed stepchild" Sorcerer who seemed sabotaged to ensure the vancian Wizard wss superior. The 3e designers created the Psion class to correct the vancian Wizard. The Psion mechanics are a normal spellcaster ... but working better and more intuitively.

Unfortunately, by the time a successful version of psionics finally arrived, there was already three editions of D&D whose experoence crystallized pretty much without it. The 3e psionic mechanics were fine, even excellent. The new problem was, its flavor didnt fit in anymore. The 3e gamers accused psionics of being not-D&D. Despite psionics being part of D&D since the origins of D&D, long before the rest of D&D! And 4e rejected 3e psionics.

I love 4e and I love psionics. But when psionics finally became available in 4e, everything about it felt incongruously technobabble flavor and unnecessarily modified mechanics. It was balanced but uselessly weird. 4e psionics felt more about "jumping the shark" in the life cycle of 4e, and less about providing a solid psionic power source for D&D.

Now each edition of D&D has fans who love its iteration of psionics. This is why psionic fans are so divided against each other. But it matters when the D&D gamers at large reject psionics!

For psionics to succeed it must go mainstream.

Obviously we must draw inspiration from earlier editions, and get buy-in from the psionic fans of each edition. But we must also get in touch with the gaming sensibilities of D&D in the here and now.

 

[Yaarel]

Ok. Let me look more carefully at what you want from 5e psionics.

Features I'd advocate for seeing:

1.) It comes from internally generated power not associated with the arcane, divine, nature/primal or any other magic based power source.

Psionics equals ones own mind, only. Beautiful.

Actually, I view primal as also ones own mind. The difference is, psionic is typically the mind of a human (or other humanoid), and primal is the mind of a rock, river, tree, or so on.

2.) It has distinctly different mechanics from spells/magic, meaning that detect magic would not detect psionics, etc... and we would not use existing spell mechanics to describe psionic powers.

I want psionic spells. But both spells and nonspells are possible, and both already exist in 5e. That ship has sailed.

Honestly, the biggest concern is balance between arcane and psionic. If the mechanics are truly balanced I can feel safer with different mechanics.

We see from history, that divergent mechanics had destroyed psionics in several editions, 1e and 2e, and also 4e whose failure was both misfit flavor and misfit mechanics.

Instead, psionics would be as different from a wizard as a fighter is different from a wizard.

Yes but. Wizard and Fighter have mechanics that are playtested for almost 50 years. Making up new mechanics for psionics seems less likely to succeed. Indeed, new mechanics did fail in the past more than once.

After all, both the Battlemaster Fighter and the Wizard have mechanics that can frighten, prone, and push enemies - but they're very distinct from each other.

Again, the balance and robustness of their mechanics is what makes this possible.

3.) Uses the 5 historical psionic attacks and 5 historical psionic defenses in ways that are meaningful and useful outside of psionic on psionic combat.

Well, this is part of why 1e psionics failed.

How would these psionic combats work in todays sensibilities?

If I recall correctly, Tashas Mind Sliver is originally the Id Insinuation in the UA. Same concept, but as a spell, with updated flavor, has enjoyed success.

This is not that hard, but the crafting would need to be careful to implement without violating rule 2 above and making it seem too similar to casting spells/cantrips.

Actually, making up new mechanics is hard. Very hard. Even for designers.

4.) Allows for 'wild' psionics, potentially via feat or background.

Ok, but gaming balance.

5.) Allows for psionic classes such as the psion and psychic warrior.

I am content that the 5e Psi Knight Fighter represents the 3e Psychic Warrior telekinetically. But the Psy War does things that the Psi Knight cant, such as shapeshifting.

There is no 5e Psion yet.

I propose the 5e Psion is a mainstream innate full spellcaster. Vanilla.

Chocolate. Then, maybe call it, the 5e Mystic goes all in for experimental mechanics and flavor, drawing from the 2e Psionicist, 3e Psychic Warrior, maybe even 4e Swordmage and todays anime manga. Maybe use the 5e Fighter superiority dice but for entirely psionic effects only.

Then if the Mystic fails because it is strange, hopefully the Psion will succeed because it is familiar. Viceversa, if the Psion fails because it is bland, hopefully the Mystic will succeed because it is spicy.

Hopefully both succeed and each has its fans.

6.) Provides classes and subclasses that do not feel like wizards, monks, sorcerers, etc..., but instead have a unique feel that is distinct to the psionic classes, but not anathema to fantasy 'purists' that see all D&D through the lens of Tolkien.

Mystic!

You could have 'overlap' subclasses (like the eldritch knight overlaps wizard onto a fighter), but you'd need to have the main class be dominant and the subclass be supportive/flavor.

Fine.

I do think the existing psuedo psionic subclasses approach this idea, but I also believe they can be done better.

I like the psionic options in Tashas. They do what they need to do and are appealing. The Psi Knight is the Fighter class, not a psionic class, and that is ok.

But I want more immersive psionic options and two fully psionic classes. Psion and Mystic.

This can be done - I've won over players that didn't like the idea of psionics in D&D once they've seen it in play in my campaigns (mostly in the 2E, 3E and 4E eras, although 4E examples are less relevant).

Cool.

7.) Respects and (where possible) utilizes the teminology of old such as the Sciences (Clairsentience, Psychokinetic, Psychoportative, etc...), Devotions, Disciplines, Powers, etc...

I want total medievalesque flavor.

I want to hear "shapeshifting", not "psychometabolism".

At the same time, I can handle treating psionic jargon like animal scientific names. There is a common name an in parentheses a scientific name in italic.

The communities that use the common name sound like animists. The communities that use the scientific names sound like intellectual academics.

Shapeshifting (psychometabolism). ...

8.) Provides alternate versions of traditionally psionic monsters within the 5E rules that utilize psionic mechanics rather than spellcasting mechanics.

9.) Is mechanically approachable to all - meaning it isn't overly complete.

Simply being a redundant system, that does the same thing that the earlier system does, is already too complex.

The only time a new mechanic is justifiable is if the current mechanics honestly cant do what needs to be done.

For example, there is no mechanic to eschew a costly gp spell component. This necessitates a new mechanic.

If the mechanics can already do something, then do it that way. If there really is no way to do something, then then and only then create something new.

 

[James Gasik]

Maybe, in order to foment a sense of mystery, wonder, or dread, the answer to why psionics exist is...nobody knows. There are theories. But even the Gods are silent about the matter.

(swipes some 4e lore): Perhaps when Vecna destroyed the crystalline wall that marked the border between What Is, and What Is Not, bizarre and powerful forces were unleashed which awoke the minds of mortals, giving them the strength to oppose the alien entities of the Far Realms. And since Ioun was the only God willing to give up her physical form to replace the barrier- a stopgap measure, at best, the other Gods are ashamed and afraid- knowing that if the truth came out, the mortals would lose Faith in them, causing them to diminish, while their former servants embraced this new power of the mind instead...

 

[Yaarel]

Maybe, in order to foment a sense of mystery, wonder, or dread, the answer to why psionics exist is...nobody knows. There are theories. But even the Gods are silent about the matter.

(swipes some 4e lore): Perhaps when Vecna destroyed the crystalline wall that marked the border between What Is, and What Is Not, bizarre and powerful forces were unleashed which awoke the minds of mortals, giving them the strength to oppose the alien entities of the Far Realms. And since Ioun was the only God willing to give up her physical form to replace the barrier- a stopgap measure, at best, the other Gods are ashamed and afraid- knowing that if the truth came out, the mortals would lose Faith in them, causing them to diminish, while their former servants embraced this new power of the mind instead...

The whole point is, psionics is the power of ones own mind.

The moment psionics becomes not the mind, but rather the aberrations, or the crystals, or magic dead zones, or vecna, or the anything else except the mind, then it is no longer psionics.

Psionics is the mind. If it isnt the mind then it isnt psionics. It is that simple.

Why do conscious minds exist? Who knows. How does a mind alter reality directly just by thinking about it? Who knows? That is just how reality works. It has always worked that way. That part is mysterious.

 

[Minigiant]

For me, psionic is mind, nothing else.

How could someone not have a mind until they stumbled into a dead zone in the weave?

I can see how the weave can impede the influence of a mind, but the mind is always there.

In a weave dead zone the mind becomes free to directly influence reality again.

It'snot that the mind doesn't exist.
It is that stable magic keeps psionics from manifesting.

But dead magic zones or wild magic zones free the mind for just long enough for the spark to form. And psions and psioinic creatures can force out magic to allow other minds to spark.

This is why psionics are more numerous in settings and places where magic are weak or drained. It is why wizards who cast counterspells and other abjurations develop psionics. It's why there usually is no god of psionics.

 

[James Gasik]

Except for Ilsensine, Auppenser, Deep Duerra, and Zuoken.

EDIT: and Sardior, forgot about him.

 

[Yaarel]

Psionics is more like Matrix "There is no spoon".

Arcane is more, Gonna make the best spoon.


Subjective magic versus objective magic.

 

[James Gasik]

You know, for not wanting Psionics to come from an extraplanar source, there sure are a lot of extraplanar creatures that have (or had, depending on the edition) Psionics.

For example we have Thought Eaters, Solars, Planetars, Astral Devas, Amnizu, Cornugon, Gelugons, Pit Fiends, Githyanki, Githzerai, Morti, Cerebriliths, Crysmals, Hollyphants, Shadow Efts, Shardminds, and more.

So while your preference may be for psionics to have nothing to do with external sources, there is plenty of published material that suggests that psionics is FROM BEYOND!

I know it's been mentioned this is the result of psionics being handled inconsistently, but given that's the lore that we have, why can't it be both? Or more mysteriously...neither...spooky noises

 

[Mind of tempest]

You know, for not wanting Psionics to come from an extraplanar source, there sure are a lot of extraplanar creatures that have (or had, depending on the edition) Psionics.

For example we have Thought Eaters, Solars, Planetars, Astral Devas, Amnizu, Cornugon, Gelugons, Pit Fiends, Githyanki, Githzerai, Morti, Cerebriliths, Crysmals, Hollyphants, Shadow Efts, Shardminds, and more.

So while your preference may be for psionics to have nothing to do with external sources, there is plenty of published material that suggests that psionics is FROM BEYOND!

I know it's been mentioned this is the result of psionics being handled inconsistently, but given that's the lore that we have, why can't it be both? Or more mysteriously...neither...spooky noises

all those are from different places so it lacks an inherent home?

 

[James Gasik]

I'm not really sure why that matters, I've always felt D&D lore is better when it accumulates as opposed to being replaced. Though apparently Mr. Crawford feels that everything pre-5th edition is no longer valid. I'm curious how that applies to the now-venerable line of books by Mr. Salvatore?*

*I'm sure it's the WotC version of "Legends continuity" or some such nonsense.