M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

[S'mon]

It sounds like you have good faith in your ability to suss out whether there might be Nazi tropes in Tékumel. From your description of your resume, that sounds accurate. But most people don't have those advantages.

I'm very wary of the idea that there are people smart enough to read and be influenced by material, who are yet not smart enough to form an independent opinion, and need an authoritative source to tell them what it really means. Much of what we do as academics is developing the capacity of students to read critically and form their own considered opinions. I really don't like the idea of telling people "You're not smart enough to understand - look to X to tell you what to think about this".

 

[pemerton]

I'm very wary of the idea that there are people smart enough to read and be influenced by material, who are yet not smart enough to form an independent opinion, and need an authoritative source to tell them what it really means. Much of what we do as academics is developing the capacity of students to read critically and form their own considered opinions. I really don't like the idea of telling people "You're not smart enough to understand - look to X to tell you what to think about this".

I'm conflicted.

(1) I'm an opinionated intellectual, who devotes hours of each day to cultivating and refining and changing those opinions, by reading new material and re-reading and reflecting on old material.

(2) What I've described in (1) wouldn't be possible if there weren't other people capable of forming and communicating interesting and sometimes complex ideas, that force me to reflect on and sometimes change mine.

I think the likelihood of Tekumel pushing someone towards National Socialism, while that person remains ignorant of any reactionary political themes or ideas in the work, is low. Maybe by presenting ethnic and racial identities as "real things" it might help validate such a conception in someone: but then it would do that whether Barker himself was a Nazi, a communist or a liberal.

 

[Hussar]

I'm sometimes fascinated by how someone's perception of a particular piece of fiction can radically change based on learning something about the writer. Joss Whedon is a great example. I know people who had nothing but positive things to say about Whedon's work in the 90s and early 2000s but some of those same people tell me he's a hack writer and tell me they see evidence of his creepiness in those works. I'm not arguing that such perspectives are unwarranted. Just that I find it fascinating.

I think what happens is that people learn about an artist then go back and start looking at the work a little more closely with that new information in mind. What was passed off earlier as maybe just "a bit creepy" or "sign of the times" or just ignored completely sometimes jumps out as "Ooooh, that's why that's there" once you start learning more about the artists.

Let's be honest here, most people are not watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer and diving into deep critical analysis. You watch it, and then largely forget it.

I remember rewatching Star Trek Next Generation a couple of years ago and marveling at just how cringe inducing the first two or three seasons really are. Flat out mind boggling bigotry and racism. Stuff that I certainly never thought about when I watched it as a young teen.

 

[S'mon]

I do think that knowing what an author is like can definitely make one not enjoy their work. The slightly creepy elements in Joss Whedon's oeuvre certainly seem amplified in retrospect. I'm even less likely to look at Tekumel now than I was before - I have previously used some Tekumel stuff such as the gods in my own settings. I made a fair bit of use of Barker's essay on creating fantasy religions discussed at [Meta Gaming] M. A. R. Barker, ‘Create a Religion in your Spare Time for Fun and Profit’ - there's nothing Nazi in that essay (I assure doubters with the full weight of my academic authority /sarcasm) - but I suspect I'll not have much desire to refer back to it in future.

 

[Hussar]

There are lots of authors I’ve dropped over the years. I was a HUGE Piers Anthony fan way back when. Then I read his kiddy porn novel and never read anything by him again.

Same goes for David Eddings.

It’s always a choice. But you can’t choose if you don’t know.

 

[Retreater]

I don't know which way you go on Starship Troopers. I saw the film when it came out. I thought it was (i) bad and (ii) laden with right wing tropes. I have a copy of the novel but have never read it, but have heard that the film is not true to it.

I thought I read that Starship Troopers was legitimately a satire of that ideology. I don't have a lot of knowledge about it, just reading articles here and there. Maybe someone else knows more?

 

[Professor Murder]

I thought I read that Starship Troopers was legitimately a satire of that ideology. I don't have a lot of knowledge about it, just reading articles here and there. Maybe someone else knows more?

Starship Troopers (The Film) is a scathing satire of Fascism. Unfortunately, it has the weakness of any satire: If people are into what you are mocking, the mockery may go completely over their heads.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Sure. I think we can see new things in a work when we learn new things about the creator. But that doesn't mean that the work has changed - it's our attitude towards it, and the salience to us of some of its features, that is changing.

But certainly that is the thing that actually matters? Art truly exists only when someone is experiencing it. If art happens in a forest and no one is around to see it, is it really art?

 

[MGibster]

I think what happens is that people learn about an artist then go back and start looking at the work a little more closely with that new information in mind. What was passed off earlier as maybe just "a bit creepy" or "sign of the times" or just ignored completely sometimes jumps out as "Ooooh, that's why that's there" once you start learning more about the artists.

That is fair. Our perceptions do change and what was acceptable in fiction at one point is no longer acceptable today. See most teen comedies from the 80s for reference.

Let's be honest here, most people are not watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer and diving into deep critical analysis. You watch it, and then largely forget it.

You're right, most people aren't doing that. But enough people were doing that in the late 90s and early 2000s during and after Buffy came to a conclusion that it was even mentioned in the recent "Undoing of Joss Whedon" article. As the article notes, in 2002 there was an academic conference with 160 scholars who attended at the University of East Anglia. Buffy was a show that was thoroughly analyzed online by its fandom, with the participation of Joss himself at the time, and Wikipedia even has an article about Buffy studies. And while there were people who didn't care for Whedon's work back then, I don't think anyone was calling him a hack. But if we don't like someone we tend to react unfavorably to anything they do. Even something we'd normally be inclined to like.

I remember rewatching Star Trek Next Generation a couple of years ago and marveling at just how cringe inducing the first two or three seasons really are. Flat out mind boggling bigotry and racism. Stuff that I certainly never thought about when I watched it as a young teen.

What? You didn't think "Code of Honor" was any good?

Starship Troopers (The Film) is a scathing satire of Fascism. Unfortunately, it has the weakness of any satire: If people are into what you are mocking, the mockery may go completely over their heads.

Starship Troopers just isn't a good movie. And I'm not saying that because I'm too stupid to get it or upset because it lampoons fascism. It's just a bad movie.

 

[pemerton]

Starship Troopers (The Film) is a scathing satire of Fascism. Unfortunately, it has the weakness of any satire: If people are into what you are mocking, the mockery may go completely over their heads.

Starship Troopers just isn't a good movie. And I'm not saying that because I'm too stupid to get it or upset because it lampoons fascism. It's just a bad movie.

I don't remember much about it, but do remember it being bad. I don't remember finding its satire particularly scathing.